General Joe Johnston

[Nytram01]

Wrong.
It was a staff rank, not a permanent rank.

https://books.google.com/books?id=jFx4DQAAQBAJ&pg=PT426&lpg=PT426&dq=Joseph+E.+Johnston+permanent+rank+lieutenant+colonel&source=bl&ots=IGxCbw4vsz&sig=cophx_-ACSQz6ql3K8f6laU0RT0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiN0Zqwj7HVAhUIOCYKHWFpDRkQ6AEIUzAI#v=onepage&q=Joseph E. Johnston permanent rank lieutenant colonel&f=false


https://books.google.com/books?id=py_MFhZf9qIC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=Joseph+E.+Johnston+permanent+rank+lieutenant+colonel&source=bl&ots=NGh8gIIfIp&sig=6C1bZsl_Uyvlr-BfPQeuqT0_xvo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiN0Zqwj7HVAhUIOCYKHWFpDRkQ6AEIUDAH#v=onepage&q=Joseph E. Johnston permanent rank lieutenant colonel&f=false


Also,
"In 1860 he became quartermaster general of the Army, a selection carrying with it promotion to the grade of 'brigadier general, staff.' As long as he served as quartermaster general, Johnston would be a brigadier general; should he leave that staff assignment, he would revert to his 'permanent grade' of lieutenant colonel."
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/421396/summary



No. It was temporary because if he ever stepped down from being Quartermaster General he would revert to his actual permanent rank of lieutenant colonel.



Staff and line ranks were separate in the United States Army also. It was the line rank that actually counted.

I feel we're arguing minor details when in truth we're basically saying the same thing.

The crux of the matter remains this. The Staff ranking did not count toward his Line seniority. If he had remained in a staff position it would have done so. If he had gone from being Quartermaster General of the US Army to Quartermaster General of the Confederate Army he would have retained his seniority but because he became a General officer in command of troops in the field only his last perminant rank in the line counted and that was a Lieutenant Colonel.

My issue was that you appeared to be saying he only held a temporary General's rank which was not recognized as a perminant one in the US Army. There might indeed have been a provision that if he were to leave a Staff position to return to command of Line unit then the Generalcy would have been forfiet but this in and of itself did not make the Staff Generalcy any less legitimate of a rank.

The role of Quartermaster General brought with it a Brigadier Generals' rank that was recognized as a full perminant ranking within the US army.

Johnston was officially recognized as a Brigadier General. The only way he could lose this rank - baring courtmartial - was if he chose to relinquish it by stepping down as Quartermaster General or moving back to the Line. There was no danger of the rank being taken away him or somebody else being promoted to the position as perminant replacement as there might have been with any Brevet rank, as long as he wanted to remain Quartermaster General he would perminantly hold a Brigadier Generals rank.

He was recognized as a full time legitimate General in the US Army pre-war and if he had simply retired rather than join the Confederacy then he still would have been regarded as General Johnston by all and sundry.

 

[cash]

I feel we're arguing minor details when in truth we're basically saying the same thing.

The crux of the matter remains this. The Staff ranking did not count toward his Line seniority. If he had remained in a staff position it would have done so. If he had gone from being Quartermaster General of the US Army to Quartermaster General of the Confederate Army he would have retained his seniority but because he became a General officer in command of troops in the field only his last perminant rank in the line counted and that was a Lieutenant Colonel.

My issue was that you appeared to be saying he only held a temporary General's rank which was not recognized as a perminant one in the US Army. There might indeed have been a provision that if he were to leave a Staff position to return to command of Line unit then the Generalcy would have been forfiet but this in and of itself did not make the Staff Generalcy any less legitimate of a rank.

The role of Quartermaster General brought with it a Brigadier Generals' rank that was recognized as a full perminant ranking within the US army.

Johnston was officially recognized as a Brigadier General. The only way he could lose this rank - baring courtmartial - was if he chose to relinquish it by stepping down as Quartermaster General or moving back to the Line. There was no danger of the rank being taken away him or somebody else being promoted to the position as perminant replacement as there might have been with any Brevet rank, as long as he wanted to remain Quartermaster General he would perminantly hold a Brigadier Generals rank.

He was recognized as a full time legitimate General in the US Army pre-war and if he had simply retired rather than join the Confederacy then he still would have been regarded as General Johnston by all and sundry.

It was a temporary rank. Don't confuse temporary with not legitimate. It was a legitimate rank, but a staff rank only good as long as he was in that position.

 

[gary]

I do not envy Joe Johnston when he was reappointed commander of the Army of Tennessee after Hood destroyed it. That was almost as bad as Greene being placed in command of the Continental Army in the South after Lincoln and then Gates had theirs destroyed. Unlike Greene, though, who slipped past Cornwallis, Johnston could not skirt around his opponent and let another army deal with Sherman.

 

[JeffBrooks]

The debate between Cash and Nytram01 is pretty much exactly what Davis and Johnston were arguing about.

 

[OldReliable1862]

I know I'm saying this as a novice student of the war, but I don't know if I'll ever be able to completely understand Joseph E. Johnston or George B. McClellan. Of course, given more years of reading, I might form a more concrete opinion, but for now they just escape me.

 

[highplainsdrifter59]

Read, and find good books that you enjoy that will keep your interest up. As with any subject, you have to start somewhere. Plus here is a good place where you can ask questions and get 500 different views and answers.

 

[Nytram01]

The debate between Cash and Nytram01 is pretty much exactly what Davis and Johnston were arguing about.

Not really. We're both agreed that Johnston's Staff Generals rank did not count towards his ranking as a Line officer. The only thing we're really disagreeing about is whether Johnston lost his US Army Brigadier Generals rank when he resigned - the issue of whether it was a temporary rank or a perminant one.

What Johnston was arguing was that his Staff General's rank entitled him to be the highest ranking General in the Confederacy, but Davis didn't agree because he judged it by the arm in which the officers currently served which mean he placed Johnston on the grounds of his last full rank in the Line as US Officer.

Either way both Cash and I agree that Johnston's fall in seniority in the Confederacy was legitimate. It's only the reasoning for it we're at odds about.

 

[67th Tigers]

It was a temporary rank. Don't confuse temporary with not legitimate. It was a legitimate rank, but a staff rank only good as long as he was in that position.

Johnston's brigadier-generalship was a substantive rank, but in the process he changed corps.

Before the move Johnston was a Lt-Col in the Army (seniority 13th Sept 1847) and 1st Cavalry. After the move he was a BG in the Army and Quartermaster Corps. Holding a Commission in the QM Corps meant he was no longer in line of command.

When he joined the PACS as a line officer Jeff Davis took his seniority from his last Commission as a line officer, Lt-Col dated 13th Sept 1847. This placed him below AS Johnson (BG in the Army and Col of his Corps) and RE Lee (Col in the Army and of his Corps), and above Beauregard (Major in the Army and Captain in his Corps).

Johnston argued that his status as outside the line of command should have been irrelevant vs the rank. JD didn't agree, and his interpretation of US Army regulations (lifted whole into the new PACS) was the right one.

 

[Saruman]

It would have been better for the Confederacy if Davis had appointed JE Johnston as Quartermaster and retained his rank. It would have kept him from field command and satisfied his ego as first ranked general

 

[Tin cup]

I wished he would of stayed with the Union...just saying...

I wish the SOUTH had stayed in the Union!

Kevin Dally

 

[highplainsdrifter59]

I wish the SOUTH had stayed in the Union!

Kevin Dally

Yea, but both those things didn't happen, maybe the South losing was because Johnston went with his home state? He could have stayed in the North, commanded the AOP and retreated back into Washington and allowed the South to win the war.

 

[Tin cup]

Yea, but both those things didn't happen, maybe the South losing was because Johnston went with his home state? He could have stayed in the North, commanded the AOP and retreated back into Washington and allowed the South to win the war.

Pro-South fantacy!

Kevin Dally

 

[Tin cup]

I'll never understand how it was that A.S. Johnston ranks Joe Johnston? A.S. Johnston was proved a terrible commander early in the war.

Kevin Dally

 

[MHB1862]

Much of the rank debate here sounds very much like Joe and Jeff's arguing back and forth.

My take is that Joe's two major concerns during the war were his rank and where he would retreat from next. Neither trait endeared him to the Davis government.