General Joe Johnston

[NH Civil War Gal]

I haven't delved much into his life and it will be awhile with my pile of books on Grant to get through first - but I just found out that he was the highest or second highest officer in the old army BUT when he joined in with the Confederacy, he was only the 4th highest. From the little I read, he was pretty nettled about this and things went downhill from there with Davis.

So.... do you think, if he could have known in advance what his ranking would be and how Davis would be, would he have gone with the Union or the Confederacy?

 

[highplainsdrifter59]

I wished he would of stayed with the Union...just saying...

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I wished he would of stayed with the Union...just saying...

 

[Eleanor Rose]

I know just enough about Joseph Johnston to be dangerous. I have read about him because my favorite general, James Longstreet, really liked him. His ranking in the Confederacy did indeed ignite a bitter feud with Davis, one that would last the war and even spill into his postwar memoir, Narrative of Military Operations published in 1874. During the war, Johnston wrote to Davis that the president had "tarnished my fair name as a soldier and a man," a rebuke the President deemed insubordinate.

So.... do you think, if he could have known in advance what his ranking would be and how Davis would be, would he have gone with the Union or the Confederacy?

I tend to think he would have gone with the Confederacy regardless. During the Mexican War, Johnston received a brevet rank of colonel for his leadership under fire at the Battle of Chapultepec. In 1855, Jefferson Davis, the acting U.S. Secretary of War, denied an appeal by him that, following the Mexican War, his brevet rank of colonel entitled him to the actual rank of colonel. This ruling proved to be just the first of many disagreements between the two men. Since there was already a "history" between Davis and Johnston before the Civil War began, I doubt Johnston expected to receive favorable treatment. He was also a Virginian by birth.

 

[nitrofd]

Davis did have issues with Johnston that appears to have been a personal problem between them that spilled over into the public.Davis always had history of putting Johnston in impossible situations as per example when Davis put him in charge of the western theater but the problem was Johnston's subordinates Bragg,Kirby Smith, and Pemberton had to report to Richmond instead of Johnston.Davis' history sure did not do anything to help Johnston,as this happened in the fall of 1862 .

 

[civilken]

this is a very good question. I don't think so but you never know and he certainly had no love for Davis pride is a powerful emotion and like most people Johnson had his share.

 

[cash]

I haven't delved much into his life and it will be awhile with my pile of books on Grant to get through first - but I just found out that he was the highest or second highest officer in the old army BUT when he joined in with the Confederacy, he was only the 4th highest. From the little I read, he was pretty nettled about this and things went downhill from there with Davis.

So.... do you think, if he could have known in advance what his ranking would be and how Davis would be, would he have gone with the Union or the Confederacy?

Joe's rank was because of his position. He was Quartermaster General of the United States Army, which gave him a staff rank of brigadier general; however, that wasn't his permanent rank. His permanent rank was actually lieutenant colonel, though he had a brevet to colonel. Joe was in the wrong, and had he been a bit smarter he would have realized it.

It's hard to say what he would have done had he known prior what his ranking would be and what Davis was like to work for. He might have just resigned and gone home.

 

[Jimklag]

Joe's rank was because of his position. He was Quartermaster General of the United States Army, which gave him a staff rank of brigadier general; however, that wasn't his permanent rank. His permanent rank was actually lieutenant colonel, though he had a brevet to colonel. Joe was in the wrong, and had he been a bit smarter he would have realized it.

It's hard to say what he would have done had he known prior what his ranking would be and what Davis was like to work for. He might have just resigned and gone home.

You're dead right. Because of the brevet rank and QM position, Johnston claimed to be the highest rank though there were others who had the permanent rank of full colonel. Anyone who's ever been in the service knows that permanent rank comes before brevet rank and posotional rank when it comes to the promotion list.

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

I'm always learning something new here! Thank you.

 

[Nytram01]

I haven't delved much into his life and it will be awhile with my pile of books on Grant to get through first - but I just found out that he was the highest or second highest officer in the old army BUT when he joined in with the Confederacy, he was only the 4th highest. From the little I read, he was pretty nettled about this and things went downhill from there with Davis.

So.... do you think, if he could have known in advance what his ranking would be and how Davis would be, would he have gone with the Union or the Confederacy?

Joseph Eggleston Johnston was the first West Point graduate to reach a Full Generals rank when he was appointed Quartermaster General of the US Army in 1860. No other General left the US Army for the Confederacy and, as such, he was the highest ranking officer to leave the Union. The second highest ranking was Samuel Cooper who had served as Adjutant General since 1852 but held the full rank of Colonel.

When it came to the ranking the Full Generals of Confederacy this was not reflected as Joe Johnston fell from 1st to 4th, with Cooper, Sidney Johnston and Lee all being bumped ahead of him. The reason for this was that Johnston had transfered from a Staff position as Quartermaster General (US) to a Line position as a General in the field and the rules for the Confederate army forbade Staff officers from using their seniority to take command of troops in the field. Confederate regulations also discounted brevet promotions when it concerned seniority, and as Joe Johnston's last full rank as a Line officer in the US Army had been a Lieutenant Colonel it accounted quite legally for his fall behind the three full Colonels Cooper (Staff), Sidney Johnston (Line) and Lee (Line).

Johnston was upset about this because nobody had bothered to inform him about how the rankings and seniority would be decided. Without an explanation he took it to be a public rebuke and a display of discontent by the Confederate Government of his conduct to that point. He may well have been jumping to conclusion, but Davis's letter to him dismissing his protests outright yet offering no reason for the change in ranking position did nothing to address his concerns, sooth his injured pride or convince him that he had the Government's confidence.

It is my belief that had he know ahead of time that he would have suffered a drop in seniority then, even if he did not know the reason why, he would still have joined the Confederacy. As his wife Lydia said to Winfield Scott when the US General-in-Chief tried to recruit her in his attempts to convince him to remain with the Union:

"My husband cannot stay in an army which is about to invade his native country"​

Much like his friend and West Point classmate Robert E. Lee, Joseph E. Johnston first and foremost thought of himself as Virginian, and where Virginia went he saw himself duty bound to follow.

 

[Nytram01]

Joe's rank was because of his position. He was Quartermaster General of the United States Army, which gave him a staff rank of brigadier general; however, that wasn't his permanent rank. His permanent rank was actually lieutenant colonel, though he had a brevet to colonel. Joe was in the wrong, and had he been a bit smarter he would have realized it.

It's hard to say what he would have done had he known prior what his ranking would be and what Davis was like to work for. He might have just resigned and gone home.

Johnston's General's rank was a perminant rank. His promotion to the rank of Brigadier General was confirmed on June 28th 1860 and that made him the first graduate of West Point Academy to become a Full General. It was purely the fact that he was transferring from a Staff position to a Line position that accounted for his fall in seniority.

 

[Nytram01]

You're dead right. Because of the brevet rank and QM position, Johnston claimed to be the highest rank though there were others who had the permanent rank of full colonel. Anyone who's ever been in the service knows that permanent rank comes before brevet rank and posotional rank when it comes to the promotion list.

Johnston served as a Full General for almost ten months before resigning his commission in the US Army. His Colonelcy was only a Brevet ranking but as Quartermaster General his Brigadier General's rank was a perminent one.

 

[cash]

Johnston's General's rank was a perminant rank. His promotion to the rank of Brigadier General was confirmed on June 28th 1860 and that made him the first graduate of West Point Academy to become a Full General. It was purely the fact that he was transferring from a Staff position to a Line position that accounted for his fall in seniority.

No, that's incorrect. His rank was not a permanent rank. He only had it as a staff position. A brigadier general is not a full general.

 

[cash]

Johnston served as a Full General for almost ten months before resigning his commission in the US Army. His Colonelcy was only a Brevet ranking but as Quartermaster General his Brigadier General's rank was a perminent one.

A brigadier general is not a full general, and his ranking as QMG was not permanent. He only had that rank for as long as he held the position. Once he left that position his rank automatically reverted back to his permanent rank of lieutenant colonel.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

.

 

[Nytram01]

No, that's incorrect. His rank was not a permanent rank. He only had it as a staff position. A brigadier general is not a full general.

No. You're incorrect. Johnston's rank as a General in the US Army was a perminant one. It was not a Brevet promotion and it was not temporary. He was perminantly appointed as the replacement for General Thomas S. Jesup when he died in April 1860.

There were only two ranks higher than Brigadier General before the Civil War and they were Major General and Lietentant General, and Winfield Scott was the only man who held them - and Lieutenant General had only officially been held by George Washington, Scott held it as a Brevet.

A brigadier general is not a full general, and his ranking as QMG was not permanent. He only had that rank for as long as he held the position. Once he left that position his rank automatically reverted back to his permanent rank of lieutenant colonel.

It was temporary only in so much as anybody's ranking was until they resigned. Once he resigned his commission from the US Army he was no longer any rank, he was a civilian until he offer his service to the Virginia Milita and then Confederate Army.

His Staff General rank just didn't count towards his seniority in the Confederate Army because Staff and Line ranks in the Confederacy were counted as seperate. Only his Lieutenant Colonels rank counted because that was arm of the service in which he was currently serving. If he had been appointed Confederate Quartermaster General then his General's rank would have counted because he would have moving from a Staff position to a Staff position instead of from a Staff to a Line one.

 

[thomas aagaard]

No other General left the US Army for the Confederacy and, as such, he was the highest ranking officer to leave the Union.

You are forgetting David E. Twiggs who was a major general and in command of all US forces in Texas...
He was thrown out of the army for ""treachery to the flag of his country"...
(and had he been captured he might very well have be charged with treason.)

 

[Nytram01]

You are forgetting David E. Twiggs who was a major general and in command of all US forces in Texas...
He was thrown out of the army for ""treachery to the flag of his country"...
(and had he been captured he might very well have be charged with treason.)

True. He didn't serve any active duty in the Confederate Army however so that might be why I overlooked him.

 

[thomas aagaard]

But he did accept a commission as a major general... before poor health made him reconsider.

 

[cash]

No. You're incorrect. Johnston's rank as a General in the US Army was a perminant one. It was not a Brevet promotion and it was not temporary. He was perminantly appointed as the replacement for General Thomas S. Jesup when he died in April 1860.

Wrong.
It was a staff rank, not a permanent rank.

https://books.google.com/books?id=jFx4DQAAQBAJ&pg=PT426&lpg=PT426&dq=Joseph+E.+Johnston+permanent+rank+lieutenant+colonel&source=bl&ots=IGxCbw4vsz&sig=cophx_-ACSQz6ql3K8f6laU0RT0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiN0Zqwj7HVAhUIOCYKHWFpDRkQ6AEIUzAI#v=onepage&q=Joseph E. Johnston permanent rank lieutenant colonel&f=false


https://books.google.com/books?id=p...ton permanent rank lieutenant colonel&f=false


Also,
"In 1860 he became quartermaster general of the Army, a selection carrying with it promotion to the grade of 'brigadier general, staff.' As long as he served as quartermaster general, Johnston would be a brigadier general; should he leave that staff assignment, he would revert to his 'permanent grade' of lieutenant colonel."
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/421396/summary

It was temporary only in so much as anybody's ranking was until they resigned. Once he resigned his commission from the US Army he was no longer any rank, he was a civilian until he offer his service to the Virginia Milita and then Confederate Army.

No. It was temporary because if he ever stepped down from being Quartermaster General he would revert to his actual permanent rank of lieutenant colonel.

His Staff General rank just didn't count towards his seniority in the Confederate Army because Staff and Line ranks in the Confederacy were counted as seperate. Only his Lieutenant Colonels rank counted because that was arm of the service in which he was currently serving. If he had been appointed Confederate Quartermaster General then his General's rank would have counted because he would have moving from a Staff position to a Staff position instead of from a Staff to a Line one.

Staff and line ranks were separate in the United States Army also. It was the line rank that actually counted.