Fredericksburg, During Battle?

[JPK Huson 1863]

Unsurprisingly Library of Congress, have the link somewhere.

This photo states it is taken from The Lacy House the day of battle, during the battle. Whoa!?! No reason to disbelieve this statement considering these photos were published while most veterans were still alive. Deviations from truth would have been pounced on, the photo and claimant pretty well mauled and book probably demanded pulled from circulation. That is opinion only, please know. The veterans were tough! If anyone ever wishes some fascinating reading please, please get a copy of ' Battles and Leaders' or anything containing vets' back and forths post war.

I'm not well enough educated on the battle to know where fighting would be taking place. There are foggy areas, no idea if these are relevant? I'm certainly not posting this as claiming knowledge of a thing related to Fredericksburg beyond the dreadful carnage that day.

May, 1863, Taken from near the Lacy House and according to this caption the photo captures The Battle of Fredericksburg while it is under way.

The Lacy House, Chatham Manor , The Civil War brought change and destruction to Chatham. At the time the house was owned by James Horace Lacy {1823-1906}, a former schoolteacher who had married Churchill Jones's niece. As a planter, Lacy sympathized with the South, and at the age of 37 he left Chatham to serve the Confederacy as a staff officer. His wife and children remained at the house until the spring of 1862, when the arrival of Union troops forced them to abandon the building and move in with relatives across the river in the beleaguered city of Fredericksburg. For much of the next thirteen months, Chatham would be occupied by the Union army; they referred to it as the "Lacy House" in their orders and reports, as well as diaries and letters.
https://virginiaplantation.wordpress.com/2013/04/06/chatham-manor-the-civil-war-years/

Marye's House- what you can't see are rifle pits towards the front

Ruins in the town

More ruins

 

[Dave Wilma]

No smoke?

 

[wilber6150]

No smoke?

Ive seen this image before, look at the border between the top of the hills and the sky background, from other discussions there is supposed to be smoke from the fighting there...

 

[Package4]

very doubtful, first had accounts discussed the smoke from the smoldering buildings on the edge of the river, due to the artillery bombardment trying to dislodge Barksdale's sharpshooters, the day before. Not sure, but I think this was also the scene of one of the pontoon bridges, not in evidence. CW photographers often made claims that were at best exagerated, moved bodies and added props for greater effect.

There is a picture of Sharpsburg, that for over one hundred years, was thought to be of the battle; subsequent research shows that it was of the Union reserve artillery, in camp at Sharpsburg.

 

[J. Horace]

Smith married J. Horace Lacy's daughter, Agnes, at Chatham in 1871.

 

[Package4]

very doubtful, first had accounts discussed the smoke from the smoldering buildings on the edge of the river, due to the artillery bombardment trying to dislodge Barksdale's sharpshooters, the day before. Not sure, but I think this was also the scene of one of the pontoon bridges, not in evidence. CW photographers often made claims that were at best exagerated, moved bodies and added props for greater effect.

There is a picture of Sharpsburg, that for over one hundred years, was thought to be of the battle; subsequent research shows that it was of the Union reserve artillery, in camp at Sharpsburg.

My apologies, I assumed 1st battle of Fredericksburg and not the 2nd as date implies; I still think there would be much more smoke, if a battle were in progress.

 

[Package4]

The attached shows what a Corps looks like in camp with all of the wood smoke from mess fires, if it were a battle scene, there would be twice the amount of smoke.

I remember re-enacting I think the 135th Spotsylvania at Brandy Station and took a few photos of the action (yes I farbed out) and the smoke was so thick that the photos showed mainly smoke and a few ghosts therein. Black powder produces a great amount of smoke, particularly if artillery is mixed in.

 

[E_just_E]

Here is what you are seeing, which is not much... Here is the battle map: (Click on both to magnify if so wish)

That Square up there is the following aerial view today (battlefield preservation at its bestest /sarcasm) :

X marks the spot that picture was taken and facing pretty much due East. Marye's Heights are the University of Mary Washington, College Heights and Eagle Village. The town is pretty much the same and you can see the outlines of the rivers/creeks on that side of Rappahannock. Train is still there in mostly the same tracks (look at the little blue icon above to orient) Also, that broken bridge is the dead end in the battle map and the Kings' Hwy bridge in the modern map

Most of the fighting happened to the East of the town and is totally blocked from view in that picture. Of course, you cannot see anything that happened South of there involving the Jackson/Franklin troops.

See those several white spots by the far hill in the photo? I think that there are artillery charges before the Union Charge started...

 

[Package4]

Here is what you are seeing, which is not much... Here is the battle map: (Click on both to magnify if so wish)

That Square up there is the following aerial view today (battlefield preservation at its bestest /sarcasm) :

X marks the spot that picture was taken and facing pretty much due East. Marye's Heights are the University of Mary Washington, College Heights and Eagle Village. The town is pretty much the same and you can see the outlines of the rivers/creeks on that side of Rappahannock. Train is still there in mostly the same tracks (look at the little blue icon above to orient) Also, that broken bridge is the dead end in the battle map and the Kings' Hwy bridge in the modern map

Most of the fighting happened to the East of the town and is totally blocked from view in that picture. Of course, you cannot see anything that happened South of there involving the Jackson/Franklin troops.

See those several white spots by the far hill in the photo? I think that there are artillery charges before the Union Charge started...

You made the same mistake I did, the picture refers to May '63 and the second battle of Fredericksburg, though the maps give perspective, there is still not enough smoke for a battle to be raging, in my opinion. To my knowledge there is only one known in action/battle picture and that is off of the SC coast during a monitor bombardment of Charleston, I believe this was discovered to be an action photo by Les Jensen, of the USMA Museum.

 

[E_just_E]

You made the same mistake I did, the picture refers to May '63 and the second battle of Fredericksburg, though the maps give perspective, there is still not enough smoke for a battle to be raging, in my opinion. To my knowledge there is only one known in action/battle picture and that is off of the SC coast during a monitor bombardment of Charleston, I believe this was discovered to be an action photo by Les Jensen, of the USMA Museum.

I see. Did not even look at the date. IIRC, the area of fighting was still Marye's Heights, where Jubal Early was left to Guard. Sedwick attacked pretty much at the same area as before, so the visibility from Lucy's House should be about the same in both battles. Fewer forces in the second battle.

 

[Package4]

If you click on the original photo it magnifies a bit and there is no smoke, photographers of the day stretched the truth quite a bit. Brady using assistants to pose as soldiers both dead and alive (Gettysburg); the dragging of the famous "sharpshooter" corpse around Devil's Den and photographing in different locals. Whatever it took to grab the public's attention and wallet/purse.

Can't be certain, but the foliage doesn't look right for May in Virginia, but that could be due to the number of troops in the vicinity for the past 6 months.

 

[wilber6150]

The attached shows what a Corps looks like in camp with all of the wood smoke from mess fires, if it were a battle scene, there would be twice the amount of smoke.

I remember re-enacting I think the 135th Spotsylvania at Brandy Station and took a few photos of the action (yes I farbed out) and the smoke was so thick that the photos showed mainly smoke and a few ghosts therein. Black powder produces a great amount of smoke, particularly if artillery is mixed in.

This picture is still in debate, if you focus on the line of men in the valley they are certainly not encamped, and looks more like a line at rest. Now whether this actually took place during the battle is debateable but its certainly not a camp scene.

https://willcoffey.smugmug.com/OriginalCivilWarImageStudies/Antietam/AntietamReserve/i-6BvDznc

 

[Package4]

This picture is still in debate, if you focus on the line of men in the valley they are certainly not encamped, and looks more like a line at rest. Now whether this actually took place during the battle is debateable but its certainly not a camp scene.

https://willcoffey.smugmug.com/OriginalCivilWarImageStudies/Antietam/AntietamReserve/i-6BvDznc

The area of the photograph was taken from the Pry House and the day of the battle all Union Reserve Artillery was actually on the ridge to the right and beyond the infantry camped in the photo and not in the valley. The men in the picture are in camp, a campaign camp. Gardner, who took the photo, did not arrive on the field until late on the afternoon of the 18th and may have taken the picture at that time, but most likely on the 19th when he took most of his shots.

The men encamped in the picture are from the V Corps Humphrey's Division, who arrived on the field on the 18th. The evidence is "almost" conclusive, but leaves a little room for those who want to believe that this was actually taken on the day of the battle. Regardless, this is in a rear area, with the artillery horses hobbled and nowhere near ready for action.

 

[AUG]

Not taken during the battle, but here's one of my favorite images of the Fredericksburg battlefield, looking out over the ground that the Federals had to cross in their attacks on Marye's Heights. This image was taken facing west; Marye's Heights is seen in the background and the irrigation ditch is in the foreground.

Here's another photo taken from atop Marye's Heights. The Telegraph Road and stone wall can be seen at the bottom of the hill, earthworks are in the foreground, town is in the background.

 

[wilber6150]

The area of the photograph was taken from the Pry House and the day of the battle all Union Reserve Artillery was actually on the ridge to the right and beyond the infantry camped in the photo and not in the valley. The men in the picture are in camp, a campaign camp. Gardner, who took the photo, did not arrive on the field until late on the afternoon of the 18th and may have taken the picture at that time, but most likely on the 19th when he took most of his shots.

The men encamped in the picture are from the V Corps Humphrey's Division, who arrived on the field on the 18th. The evidence is "almost" conclusive, but leaves a little room for those who want to believe that this was actually taken on the day of the battle. Regardless, this is in a rear area, with the artillery horses hobbled and nowhere near ready for action.

Campaign camp? Theres is scarcly a single shelter half in evidence in that line of troops, quite odd for a camp, and just what kind of camp is organized like that? And with the flag in the position its at? There is more pointing to this being a line of troops resting while marching then any camp scene. Where is this conclusive evidence, Ive seen nothing but guess work on the majority of it...

 

[nextcity]

For comparison, a few photos from the present from Chatham Manor:

 

[AUG]

Here's the link to an analysis of the supposed battle photographs in question:
https://npsfrsp.wordpress.com/2011/04/17/coaxing-second-fredericksburg-out-of-the-shadows-pt-3/

 

[Package4]

OK, let me try again, Lee did not leave the field at Sharpsburg until the 19th, the reserve that is depicted in the picture camped by the Pry House is Humphrey's V Corps division, who marched 23 miles and arrived at 9:00 AM on the 18th. His men were depicted sleeping on arms, thus the camp of reserves in the picture.

There would be no way anyone on the field is going to pitch a tent with the possibility of resuming the battle. McClellan was quoted as saying he was going to resume the battle on the 19th, but for the slow arrival of Humphreys, to this Humphreys demanded a court of inquiry, from Stanton and McClellan was forced to correct the record. They are not on the march, in fact McClellan remained in the Sharpsburg vicinity, with the majority of his army and met Lincoln Oct 2-4.

 

[Package4]

Here's the link to an analysis of the supposed battle photographs in question:
https://npsfrsp.wordpress.com/2011/04/17/coaxing-second-fredericksburg-out-of-the-shadows-pt-3/

This study is rather compelling

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

Thought I'd browse with a few minutes, these posts are terrific. Have nothing to add- really love the era photos with markers! There's a photo with Barksdale's men standing on the end of that truncated bridge by the mill, right?

For some reason a lot of the most haunting era photos are of Fredericksburg, must have been a few photographers through there. Really do not collect these old things for ' Show and Tell ', just am smitten. You can get lost in them.

This is so clear. Where is this, please? I know ' Fredericksburg but there are no homes, etc.

I think this is the Baptist Church