Engraved vs Stamped lockplates

[Gibbs]

I got in a side lock plate for my Armisport 1853 Enfied the other day. I wanted to get one close to my Grandfather's original which is TOWER and then 1862 date right under that. Well, I found a guy, Terry Schultz that sold me a re-worked Armisport side plate that has 1862 and TOWER right underneath it. Cost was not excessive (I thought) at $85.00. It came bright finish and looks like he had buffed out the original "ENFIELD 1853" that comes with the Armisport rifle and then had it engraved with 1862 and TOWER under by a jeweler.

Well, the TOWER 1862 is very faint, and I doubt that any authentic, made in England TOWER rifles were ever engraved, but stamped. I tried doing a sort of case hardening look to it using cold blue and water and a Q-Tip, as I saw done on Youtube. Did not turn out to look like case hardening, but rather old looking patina. Point is you have to really look hard to find the 1862 and TOWER on it.

Does the N-SSA condone engraved side plates, or do they only recognize true stamped? I would think engraving would be discouraged, or rejected. From what I understand they have certain guidelines for firearms to meet a certain criteria, and I don't think this fits into it.

 

[Craig L Barry]

Actually original Tower marked P53 locks were engraved. So were the hammers with lines and what they referred to as "flames."See "The Resources, Products, and Industrial History of Birmingham and the Midlands"
edited by Samuel Timmins (1866) p. 393. The article is by the Chairman of the Birmingham Small Arms Trade, John D. Goodman, in the section about 'setters up.' It even gives the wages for lock plate engravers and other jobs. It is also covered in the Suppliers to the Confederacy books in the section on the Birmingham system of manufacture.

Another thing with the lock plate you have from Terry, which as you point out is engraved, is that where he buffed off the ENFIELD 1853 from the lock plate, it gets slightly dished out. Or that used to the case. Details on this are in The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy (2006).

 

[Gibbs]

I did not know that they were engraved. most of the examples I have seen look like they may have used a stamp. I'll post pictures of Great Grandpa's Tower, and the picture Terry sent me of the one I got, and another one, which to me looked like stamped.

Terry's plate:

 

[Gibbs]

Another thought I had on "defarbed" replica Enfields, is the serial number. Several remove the serial number that is visible on the side and move it to the bottom of the barrel. This makes it look cleaner, more authentic. Why even bother adding the serial number back on? Originals did not have them. Replica rifles don't go through the FFL like normal modern rifled so. In fact, my one 22 rifle, I got from my Mother, does not even have a serial number on it. Made before it was a practice to put this on.
Is there some sort of Federal law that states that antique firearm and replicas do not need to have serial numbers?

 

[Craig L Barry]

Another thought I had on "defarbed" replica Enfields, is the serial number. Several remove the serial number that is visible on the side and move it to the bottom of the barrel. This makes it look cleaner, more authentic. Why even bother adding the serial number back on? Originals did not have them. Replica rifles don't go through the FFL like normal modern rifled so. In fact, my one 22 rifle, I got from my Mother, does not even have a serial number on it. Made before it was a practice to put this on.
Is there some sort of Federal law that states that antique firearm and replicas do not need to have serial numbers?

There isn't any regulation requiring reproductions to have a serial number, and after defarbing, many don't add them back on. Manufacturers use them for purposes of keeping track of their products. The National Park Service requires a serial number when you register your reproduction musket to do a historic weapons demo at one of the Civil War battlefield parks. That way if the musket is misplaced or stolen, there is some tracking mechanism for their law enforcement personnel. The rifle-musket I use for programs out at STRI (Stones River) is a custom US 1861 made by Mike Yeck of Michigan probably 30 or 35 years ago, before there were very many reproductions, and certain it pre-dates any reproduction US 1861s. The underside of the barrel is marked "YECK." I use that as the "serial number" for registration purposes out at the battlefield park.

Another reason to do so is that by putting the modern markings out of sight (under the barrel) it reduces the possibility down the road that it might be fobbed off as an original. Armi Sport as of about five years ago began offering "defarbed" muskets with the serial numbers located under the barrel. They somewhat comically referred to the regular product line as "farbed." I always found that kind of amusing.

 

[Gibbs]

Well, according to another source, David at Lodgewood Mfg., most of the gun makers in England had their own staff of engravers since they also did shotguns as well, that were engraved. As for the lock plate there was some engraving done, mostly that double line around the edge and the pattern on the hammer was engraved. The words TOWER and 186* (* denotes either 1, 2, 3 for years) were stamped as well as the crown on the left of the hammer. ... according to Dave Stavlo

 

[ikesdad]

The Tower and date on the original you posted certainly look stamped and not engraved.

 

[Gibbs]

The Tower and date on the original you posted certainly look stamped and not engraved.

I also found this really nice example of a picture of TOWER with a date of 1861.

It has some nice engraved double line and nice engraving on the hammer both lines and feathering. Not sure about the crown behind the hammer whether it was engraved or stamped. With the hundred of thousands of these musket made for selling to both the Union and Confederacy, I would think anything to help lessen the time to finish would be strongly encouraged.

 

[Gibbs]

Received in this side plate today from Todd Watts. I asked for the TOWER over the 1862 like my Great Grandfather's Enfield and that's what he delivered. move the internals over and put it on the rifle and doesn't look too bad. I replaced the bottom sling with a proper Enfield sling. I also have replaced the oval escutcheon with the correct square escutcheons.

 

[Larryh86GT]

It looks good. Here is my 1862 Tower to compare:

 

[Gibbs]

It looks good. Here is my 1862 Tower to compare:

Yours look very good. Funny that if you look at the front of the lockplate on yours and mine, they both have a small piece of wood missing from the stock in about the same place.

 

[Larryh86GT]

You're right. The wood on mine is very dried out though.

 

[Craig L Barry]

Well, according to another source, David at Lodgewood Mfg., most of the gun makers in England had their own staff of engravers since they also did shotguns as well, that were engraved. As for the lock plate there was some engraving done, mostly that double line around the edge and the pattern on the hammer was engraved. The words TOWER and 186* (* denotes either 1, 2, 3 for years) were stamped as well as the crown on the left of the hammer. ... according to Dave Stavlo

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/the-p53-enfield-exception-that-proves-the-rule.147954/

Look at the letter "E" in TOWER on this lock plate. You can see where the chisel slipped while engraving it as the bottom of the letter E is extended slightly to the left. If TOWER was stamped on the lock plate, I don't think it would appear this way.

 

[Gibbs]

Yep, saw that. How tedious and seemingly time consuming to engrave it. Only if one ould find another "exactly " like that one, with the extended E to the left, would make one wonder.