Doubleday & Newton

[Hussar Yeomanry]

I know Caldwell got a bad rep at And metal (Richardson's "**** the field officers!" quote was apparently referring to Caldwell) but other it seems like there must be more to the story.

As for William Hays, I find nothing in his pre-Gettysburg record to recommend him for much of anything.

He doesn't have a stellar career afterwards either... much later gaining divisional command... in... wait for it... yeah... the 2nd Corps!

[I also assume you have auto predict on your phone and that 'And metal' is Antietam!]

On the matter of Caldwell he seems to have later put some noses out of joint but I've never seen anything prior to Gettysburg... other than the Richardson thing. So, all a bit peculiar especially as at Gettysburg Caldwell seems to have done perfectly 'ok'. A good solid if not particularly exceptional performance in at times difficult conditions.

So, perhaps Meade just didn't like him (thereby bringing the thread full circle back to the Doubleday/ Newton issue) and well he wasn't going to give 2nd Corps to Alexander Hays (not Regular Army)...

 

[Andy Cardinal]

He doesn't have a stellar career afterwards either... much later gaining divisional command... in... wait for it... yeah... the 2nd Corps!

[I also assume you have auto predict on your phone and that 'And metal' is Antietam!]

On the matter of Caldwell he seems to have later put some noses out of joint but I've never seen anything prior to Gettysburg... other than the Richardson thing. So, all a bit peculiar especially as at Gettysburg Caldwell seems to have done perfectly 'ok'. A good solid if not particularly exceptional performance in at times difficult conditions.

So, perhaps Meade just didn't like him (thereby bringing the thread full circle back to the Doubleday/ Newton issue) and well he wasn't going to give 2nd Corps to Alexander Hays (not Regular Army)...

Antietam.... **** autocorrect

 

[Saint Jude]

2) Howard's false report that the 1st Corps gave way

 

[Saint Jude]

I think I've already mentioned this, but here goes, anyway--Howard's "report" was a comment he made to Hancock when the latter first arrived on Cemetery Hill, probably wondering what the heck was going on. At the time, it was a mere statement of fact. Hancock passed the comment on to Meade. Some one later came up with idea that Howard said the First Corps gave way first, which anyone on the scene the entire day (which excludes Hancock) would have known was demonstrably false. Nevertheless, this version has been handed down ever since, and for some unknown reason, even professionally trained historians, who should know better, have believed it.

 

[Andy Cardinal]

I think I've already mentioned this, but here goes, anyway--Howard's "report" was a comment he made to Hancock when the latter first arrived on Cemetery Hill, probably wondering what the heck was going on. At the time, it was a mere statement of fact. Hancock passed the comment on to Meade. Some one later came up with idea that Howard said the First Corps gave way first, which anyone on the scene the entire day (which excludes Hancock) would have known was demonstrably false. Nevertheless, this version has been handed down ever since, and for some unknown reason, even professionally trained historians, who should know better, have believed it.

Probably a more accurate statement would be Hancock's report that Howard said the First Corps gave way. In any event, that report may have influenced Meade's decision to replace Doubleday, although I'm guessing it didn't take much to convince him. Meade's had expressed his poor opinion of Doubleday previously.

 

[rpkennedy]

Probably a more accurate statement would be Hancock's report that Howard said the First Corps gave way. In any event, that report may have influenced Meade's decision to replace Doubleday, although I'm guessing it didn't take much to convince him. Meade's had expressed his poor opinion of Doubleday previously.

Agreed. Meade was looking for an excuse and the report that the First Corps broke first gave him that excuse.

Ryan

 

[Rebforever]

While personally don't like Doubleday, he had done a very good job on July 1st. Newton was out of left field literally. Meade just did not like Doubleday. I am surprised he believed anything written by Howard, who gave his usual bad job. His men broke and ran. The 1st Corps soldiers were better than that, The iron Brigade run, I don't think so. They were fighters. Still it was Meade's decision to make. He thought it was the best thing to do, but as the 1st did not play a huge part in the rest of the battle. I assume it was a safe move.

Butterfield fits in the discussion somewhere. I haven't studied about the other Generals enough to put him in the mix.

 

[Saint Jude]

So was Howard, and apparently Doubleday & Howard didn't get along, which I find interesting.

Howard was a Republican, and as of January 1863, an abolitionist (Most historians think he was an abolitionist "from his West Point Days," but he wasn't.). He kept his political opinions as private as possible during the war because he believed soldiers shouldn't meddle in politics. He didn't express an opinion about Doubleday one way or the other until Doubleday tried to destroy his reputation after the war. Even then, he simply said that Doubleday twisted the facts because he was out for revenge for perceived slights. Blaming his dismissal on his abolitionist stance was, I think, Doubleday's way of not owning up to the fact that most of his fellow officers didn't consider him a very good commander.

 

[Saint Jude]

Howard at least cooperated with Hancock, if grudgingly.

Howard did not "grudgingly" cooperate with Hancock on July 1. Hancock himself later said that there were no contentious words between Howard and himself when he arrived on the field.

Hancock sent Morgan to order Doubleday-Newton to send a brigade to Culp's Hill.

Doubleday-Newton? I thought Newton arrived the next day.

 

[Andy Cardinal]

You are correct. Newton arrived at Gettysburg on the morning of July 2.

I wrote the quoted post from my phone & believe that "Doubleday-Newton" was an autocorrect created while typing.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Visiting this thread and topic due to reading Meade at Gettysburg.

KMB correctly uses the quote "Howard says Doubleday's command gave way." (The word "first" being absent.)

At the time, the 4 ranking major generals in the army who did not already hold corps command (Sykes having just been promoted to replace Meade at the head of the 5th Corps) were Doubleday, Schurz, Newton, & Birney. Meade's dislike of Birney was also evident after Fredricksburg, and on top of that Birney was also an abolitionist & part of the 3rf Corps clique. Schurz was not a West Pointer.

Guelzo misleadingly says Newton was about 20 spots behind Doubleday in seniority. Which means diddly since the rest of those men weren't in the Army of the Potomac.

Schurz was not just a West Pointer, but also a German and part of the tainted XI Corps.

Meade was not happy with Sickles even before July 2; taking away the division commanders is a bad idea in that circumstance. Especially since Meade already wanted Andrew Humphrey as his Chief of Staff.

What would have recommended him to Meade was his background as an engineer.

I think this is the most important factor. See also Meade's strong interest in getting Humphreys as his Chief of Staff and his trust of Warren.

Burnside was arresting Democrat congressmen and closing Democrat newspapers...

That was when he commanded the Department of the Ohio in 1863, after he had left of the Army of the Potomac.

 

[rpkennedy]

Guelzo misleadingly says Newton was about 20 spots behind Doubleday in seniority. Which means diddly since the rest of those men weren't in the Army of the Potomac.

13 by my count.

N.J.T. Dana
Richard J. Oglesby
John A. Logan
James G. Blunt
George L. Hartsuff
Cadwallader C. Washburn
Francis J. Herron
Francis P. Blair
Joseph J. Reynolds
John M. Schofield
Philip H. Sheridan
Julius Stahel
Carl Schurz