Doubleday & Newton

[War Horse]

Yes I think this in an important point, which involves the Doubleday-Newton situation and also extends beyond it. That was why both Burnside & Hooker had to go. It was better I think under Meade because he had the support of the generals, but the problem never really went away.

Did he?

 

[War Horse]

I agree that it was probably his best day, but was it really that good? I'm curious what everybody thinks about that. He did very well I think in driving back the initial assault of Heth's division in the morning, and showed some foresight in establishing a reserve position at the Seminary & sending troops to Oak Ridge. But I wonder if he was right to keep the Iron Brigade in position in the woods when it was obvious to all that the position couldn't be held. The 1st Corps lines had so many angles & gaps that it wasn't really a strong defensive position. I wonder if he night have been better off, and still saved Cemetery Hill, by falling back earlier & forming a solid, compact line with plenty of supporting artillery on Seminary Ridge?

I'm not sure I have a good answer to this in my own head, but thought the question worth asking.

Simply hindsight. Doubleday did a fine job on day one.

 

[Andy Cardinal]

Did he?

Well, at least initially. I think he got the job because Reynolds, Slocum & Sedgwick recommended him, and so did Couch I believe before he left the army. Hancock supported him, and I think Warren and Hunt were favorable. The rest, probably not, and I'm not sure he kept all that support after Gettysburg. I know Slocum and Hunt both had reservations later, and Hunt even tried to resign at one point according to Longacre's biography.

 

[Andy Cardinal]

I wonder if Doubleday's actions once he reached Cemetery Hill had any impact Meade's decision to replace him. Howard at least cooperated with Hancock, if grudgingly. Doubleday doesn't sound too good here -- account of Hancock's aide Morgan in Batchelder Papers:

Hancock sent Morgan to order Doubleday-Newton to send a brigade to Culp's Hill. "I delivered my message to the corps commander, informing him of the emergency, who with the beaten demeanor that characterized some persons on that field protested that his men were worn out, cut up, had no ammunition, etc.," Morgan wrote. "It seems General Hancock, who had followed behind me, overheard the conversation, for I heard him roar out, 'General, I want you to understand that I am in command here, send every man you have.' Wadsworth's division was sent."

 

[infomanpa]

I think that you pretty much covered it in your initial post, Andy.

 

[rpkennedy]

I wonder if Doubleday's actions once he reached Cemetery Hill had any impact Meade's decision to replace him. Howard at least cooperated with Hancock, if grudgingly. Doubleday doesn't sound too good here -- account of Hancock's aide Morgan in Batchelder Papers:

Hancock sent Morgan to order Doubleday-Newton to send a brigade to Culp's Hill. "I delivered my message to the corps commander, informing him of the emergency, who with the beaten demeanor that characterized some persons on that field protested that his men were worn out, cut up, had no ammunition, etc.," Morgan wrote. "It seems General Hancock, who had followed behind me, overheard the conversation, for I heard him roar out, 'General, I want you to understand that I am in command here, send every man you have.' Wadsworth's division was sent."

That may have been part of it as well. Doubleday was not popular among his fellow generals and this just seems to have been the last straw. After the battle (on the 6th IIRC), Doubleday approached Meade and asked to be reinstated as First Corps commander and was flat-out denied. He resigned his command and left for Washington.

Ryan

 

[MikeyB]

With Halleck allowing Meade to ignore seniority, any reason why Meade didn't pick someone like Gibbon or Williams to replace Doubleday? I thought he picked Newton because they were buddies and he respected his ability, but after reading how Newton was part of the anti-Meade cabal and got himself exiled to the Keys, that clearly doesn't seem to be the case. I thought him and Gibbon were fairly close, would seem like a good pick to me. Were there better choices?

 

[rpkennedy]

With Halleck allowing Meade to ignore seniority, any reason why Meade didn't pick someone like Gibbon or Williams to replace Doubleday? I thought he picked Newton because they were buddies and he respected his ability, but after reading how Newton was part of the anti-Meade cabal and got himself exiled to the Keys, that clearly doesn't seem to be the case. I thought him and Gibbon were fairly close, would seem like a good pick to me. Were there better choices?

Because even with his authority, he simply couldn't place a major general under a brigadier general. That would be a step too far for army politics.

Ryan

 

[Tom Elmore]

It seems Wadsworth was not too enamored of Doubleday on July 1:

Received orders from Doubleday through an aide to move our men over the crest of the hill behind us. I ordered an about face and marched back about four rods when Gen. Wadsworth rode up and asked why I was going back. (I told him that I was ordered to.) He asked where Doubleday was, I pointed to the grove [near the Seminary] in the rear. Speaking to an aide he said, "Give my compliments to Gen. Doubleday and tell him he can't see down there what is going on over here." [Biddle Family Papers, Maj. Alexander Biddle, 121st Pennsylvania]

Likewise, Hancock, later in the afternoon:

Hancock said, "General, move a brigade to the hill [Culp's] across the road on the right." Doubleday replied, "But, General, I have no brigade." Hancock responded, "Then take the first thousand men here. Never mind where they belong." [Lt. Sidney G. Cooke, 147th New York, War Talks in Kansas]

General Doubleday sent me to get some entrenching tools, and as I was coming back with them, I met General Hancock, who told me to send them back. [War Diary and Letters of Stephen Minot Weld (aide to Reynolds), 1861-1865]

[Hancock] directed me to get a brigade from the 1st Corps to occupy the western slope of [Culp's] hill. I delivered my message to the corps commander [Doubleday], informing him of the emergency, who with the beaten demeanor that characterized some persons on that field protested that his men were worn out, cut up, had no ammunition, etc. … It seems General Hancock, who had followed behind me, overheard the conversation, for I heard him roar out, "General … I want you to understand that I am in command here, send every man you have." Wadsworth's division was sent … [Lt. Col. Charles H. Morgan, Hancock's inspector general and chief of staff, Bachelder Papers, 3:1351-1352]

Even some men of the First Corps grumbled:

Commenced laying down head-stones and iron fence [on Cemetery Hill]; this by order of Gen. O. O. Howard, which called out some sharp words from Gen. Doubleday. … Had the advice of Gen. D. been listened to we should not have held the hill thirty minutes. [Sgt. Charles E. Stubbs, 2nd Maine Battery, Bachelder Papers, 2:887]

While on this subject, an image taken last year in upstate New York:

 

[James N.]

So was Howard, and apparently Doubleday & Howard didn't get along, which I find interesting.

What other Republican officers were there? Wadsworth & Birney come to mind.

Possibly that was because Howard was also an insufferable Bible-thumper and tea-totaller as well!

 

[James N.]

It seems Wadsworth was not too enamored of Doubleday on July 1:

Received orders from Doubleday through an aide to move our men over the crest of the hill behind us. I ordered an about face and marched back about four rods when Gen. Wadsworth rode up and asked why I was going back. (I told him that I was ordered to.) He asked where Doubleday was, I pointed to the grove [near the Seminary] in the rear. Speaking to an aide he said, "Give my compliments to Gen. Doubleday and tell him he can't see down there what is going on over here." [Biddle Family Papers, Maj. Alexander Biddle, 121st Pennsylvania]

As far as Wadsworth himself goes, according to things I've recently read about his conduct on July 1 he was indeed all over the field meddling and giving orders to everyone not part of his own division.

 

[Andy Cardinal]

Because even with his authority, he simply couldn't place a major general under a brigadier general. That would be a step too far for army politics.

Ryan

Although he did place Gibbon in charge of the 2nd corps in Hancock's absence ahead of Caldwell. Wasn't Caldwell a major general?

 

[Andy Cardinal]

As far as Wadsworth himself goes, according to things I've recently read about his conduct on July 1 he was indeed all over the field meddling and giving orders to everyone not part of his own division.

I believe Gettysburg was Wadsworth's first real field command?

 

[Andy Cardinal]

Possibly that was because Howard was also an insufferable Bible-thumper and tea-totaller as well!

From what I can tell Doubleday was pretty insufferable too, though not so much a Bible-thumper. Howard's political connections seem to be what kept him not only in a command but also kept getting him,promoted despite his record. Doubleday evidently had no political connections.

 

[Hussar Yeomanry]

Although he did place Gibbon in charge of the 2nd corps in Hancock's absence ahead of Caldwell. Wasn't Caldwell a major general?

He does end the war as a Major General but at Gettysburg he was still a Brigadier General.

 

[Andy Cardinal]

He does end the war as a Major General but at Gettysburg he was still a Brigadier General.

Thanks.

 

[Hussar Yeomanry]

Although he did place Gibbon in charge of the 2nd corps in Hancock's absence ahead of Caldwell. Wasn't Caldwell a major general?

Though interestingly immediately post Gettysburg (July 4th I believe) he reaches outside the 2nd Corps and appoints Brigadier General William Hays to command. (Hays had commanded a 3rd Corps brigade at Chancellorsville and got captured. Therefore recently released he had accompanied the AoP to Gettysburg though he had no official function. Mostly he seems to have been sort of unofficially attached to the Horse Artillery Reserve in as much as he appears to have been doing anything at all at Gettysburg...)

 

[Andy Cardinal]

Though interestingly immediately post Gettysburg (July 4th I believe) he reaches outside the 2nd Corps and appoints Brigadier General William Hays to command. (Hays had commanded a 3rd Corps brigade at Chancellorsville and got captured. Therefore recently released he had accompanied the AoP to Gettysburg though he had no official function. Mostly he seems to have been sort of unofficially attached to the Horse Artillery Reserve in as much as he appears to have been doing anything at all at Gettysburg...)

I've always wondered about that. Gibbon being wounded on July 3 is obviously part of the story. But I have never understood why Caldwell was so poorly thought of.

 

[Hussar Yeomanry]

I've always wondered about that. Gibbon being wounded on July 3 is obviously part of the story. But I have never understood why Caldwell was so poorly thought of.

Especially as unlike Caldwell he has no divisional level experience... and now William Hays suddenly finds himself in temporary command of a Corps. Logically he should have had seniority to Caldwell and indeed Alexander Hays (must have got confusing in there for a while) but he doesn't. (Nov 62 for Hays, April 62 for Caldwell).

Looking more carefully into it things get more mysterious. Hancock appoints Caldwell to take over the 2nd Corps but within hours (as I've now discovered) Meade appoints the significantly junior Hays over Caldwell's head...

Must have been some serious wounded pride in the 2nd Corps.

[NB I have just looked and William Hays is also junior to Alexander Hays (September 62)!]

 

[Andy Cardinal]

I know Caldwell got a bad rep at And metal (Richardson's "**** the field officers!" quote was apparently referring to Caldwell) but other it seems like there must be more to the story.

As for William Hays, I find nothing in his pre-Gettysburg record to recommend him for much of anything.