Defending Dan Sickles

[WinterLeia]

I think it's high time people stop blaming Sickles for the decimation of the Third Corp in the peach field and put the blame where it REALLY belongs. It was not an act of insubordination or rebellion. Rather, Sickles fell victim to a temporary bout of insanity. And as he had a history of such spells, and it was well-documented, it's the Union Army's fault that they put someone in charge of a corp who could at any moment take leave of his senses .

 

[SethJ]

Here we go again​

 

[TallTallMan]

View attachment 549062

Here we go again​

You know I've gotta ask where this meme is from.

 

[SethJ]

You know I've gotta ask where this meme is from.

It's actually one of my company mates. This image was taken before I joined the company, but apparently it was based off an image of Marines jokingly surrounding their CO with bayonets.

 

[RebelWeber]

I think it's high time people stop blaming Sickles for the decimation of the Third Corp in the peach field and put the blame where it REALLY belongs. It was not an act of insubordination or rebellion. Rather, Sickles fell victim to a temporary bout of insanity. And as he had a history of such spells, and it was well-documented, it's the Union Army's fault that they put someone in charge of a corp who could at any moment take leave of his senses .

While it is true the third corps was decimated it was a necessary thing in order to win the battle. He blunted Longstreet's attack ... I don't see a problem with it! I think he is more than deserving of his CMH. My problem with Mr. Sickles is his actions before the war and after the war. His killing of Barlow Key and his stewardship of Gettysburg National Military Park.

 

[121st PA Vols]

Very strange you have no problem with a corps commander that leads a tenth of the army to willfully disobey orders topped by not telling his CO that he's moving the corps to a new location. And that he is deserving a MoH. This led to the death of thousands of men placed in an exposed untenable position.
Yet you're disturbed by his killing the man who is having an affair with his wife !??! Decimating (actually more than 1 out of 10) the corps "was a necessary thing"?

 

[John Hartwell]

A few divers facts:

1. Longstreet credited Sickles with disrupting his attack.

2. Key was stupid; walking back and forth for over an hour in front of Sickles' house, craning his neck looking for the expected "all clear" signal from Sickles' wife (who had already confessed her adultery). Dirty Dan said he had ignored it as long as was humanly possible -- and the jury believed him. [Those were "the good old days" when a husband had certain ... err ... property rights.]

3. Without Sickles we might not have a GNMP.

4. Sickles was a cruel, vindictive, brutal, corrupt politician and thoroughgoing SoB (and those were his more admirable traits).

5. He should have been courtmartialed for the move that nearly destroyed his Corps (while possibly saving the day for the Union).

6. The men of the 3rd Corps idolized home to their dying day (at least the survivors did).

7. Today he'd probably be considered prime Presidential material.

 

[WinterLeia]

It did have positive consequences. But they were unintended and unpredictable. And had Mead not realized in time what Sickles had done and rushed reinforcements in to plug up the hole he had made in the Union line, I think the results would have been a lot less positive.

 

[JerryD]

A few divers facts:

1. Longstreet credited Sickles with disrupting his attack.

Just on this one point, yes, Longstreet did say that. I believe he said that at a reunion at Gettysburg when the spirit of reconciliation was the order of the day, and Sickles was standing right next to him when he was asked about his move. What else did you expect from a Southern gentleman. You can argue about the wisdom (or lack thereof) of Sickles move, but I have never found Longstreet's comment to be particularly helpful in determining the truth, given the circumstances of the comment. I think he was just being polite.

 

[Stryker65]

"temporary bout of insanity" yeah, right.

 

[jackt62]

Longstreet credited Sickles with disrupting his attack.

That has to be taken in context. Lee's intel (on which Longstreet's assault was to be made) on the whereabouts and left flank of the federal line was totally wrong. Longstreet's First Corps had expected to flank the supposed end of the Union line north of the Round Tops and east of Emmittsburg Road. But to their surprise, they encountered Sickles' III Corps ensconced as a salient essentially thwarting any such movement. So in that regard, Longstreet was correct in stating that his attack was "disrupted" by Sickles. However, had Sickles not moved his Corps from its nominally assigned position astride Cemetery Ridge, Longstreet's assault would still have been unable to flank III Corps and would similarly have met with resistance, this time confronting greater mass density due to a shorter federal line.

 

[WinterLeia]

Well, the Confederates at Gettysburg did seem to have an inexplicable problem with figuring out where the Union left was and running into Union soldiers that they didn't expect to be there. It seemed to be a mix of bad reconnaissance and the Union shifting positions, like sending troops to Little Roundtop. Sickles move to the peach orchard probably did add to that confusion, and Mead rushing in reinforcements to patch up his line could have explained some of the reason why the place seemed to be crawling with more Union soldiers than the Confederates anticipated. But, like I said, that's not something anyone could or would have planned. It was more a silver lining in an otherwise really dark cloud.

But the Union would have faired much better without that move. The destruction of the Third Corp wasn't worth whatever benefit it did bring. I mean what would we think of Mead's generalship if he deliberately put Sickles there? Not much, I can tell you.

 

[Crazy Delawares]

I've always been confused by the Sickles movement and Lee's order to attack up the Emmitsburg Road. If Lee thought the Union flank was on the road, and possibly in the air, wouldn't it have screwed up Lee's plan if Sickles had stayed in his ordered position? Sickles could've taken Longstreet's men in flank then.
It seems to me that Sickles moving out to the road and Peach Orchard justifies Lee's orders to attack up the road. The difference being that Lee didn't expect the Yankee line to extend to Devil's Den thereby forcing Longstreet to lengthen his line of attack.
As with all conjecture and confusion, well, I blame it on Dan Sickles.

 

[Belfoured]

I've always been confused by the Sickles movement and Lee's order to attack up the Emmitsburg Road. If Lee thought the Union flank was on the road, and possibly in the air, wouldn't it have screwed up Lee's plan if Sickles had stayed in his ordered position? Sickles could've taken Longstreet's men in flank then.
It seems to me that Sickles moving out to the road and Peach Orchard justifies Lee's orders to attack up the road. The difference being that Lee didn't expect the Yankee line to extend to Devil's Den thereby forcing Longstreet to lengthen his line of attack.
As with all conjecture and confusion, well, I blame it on Dan Sickles.

Several years ago Dave Powell thoroughly eviscerated the military stupidity of Sickles' decision from several aspects - removing II Corps protection of his right flank and LRT-area protection of his left flank; vastly increasing the distance from supports to his rear; doubling the length of his line which was already thinly held by his small corps; creating a salient in the middle of his new line. In addition, Dave rejected Sickles' post-battle claim that his foolish decision "saved" the Union left by interfering with Longstreet's attack. The only guys who deserved a MOH for Sickles' decision were the guys who died trying to hold his line.

 

[ColonelBuckwalter]

"temporary bout of insanity" yeah, right.

Legally speaking temporary insanity is tough to wield in court.
I wonder what it must have seemed like then.

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

View attachment 549062

Here we go again​

That photo was taken just before he sneezed!

 

[Goodwolfman38]

It's actually one of my company mates. This image was taken before I joined the company, but apparently it was based off an image of Marines jokingly surrounding their CO with bayonets.

& legend has it he gained a reputation for his insubordination & as we know as well a huge scandal occurred when he shot his wife's lover Philip Barton Key but we know the outcome acquitted for murder & during Gettysburg he disobeyed Meade's orders but either way Sickles was award a Medal of Honor for his controversial actions @ Gettysburg & of course losing a leg but after that he never held a field command again, & legend has it known for his insubordination & his willingness to disobey orders even when they were given by his superiors. And during Gettysburg his actions have been described as courageous & reckless. You be the judge

 

[jackt62]

If Lee thought the Union flank was on the road, and possibly in the air, wouldn't it have screwed up Lee's plan if Sickles had stayed in his ordered position? Sickles could've taken Longstreet's men in flank then

Of course! Longstreet's assault would have been met with withering enfilade fire by a federal line comfortably entrenched between II Corps and the Round Tops.

 

[WinterLeia]

Well, politics plays a part. He was a war Democrat, and Lincoln needed the support of the war Democrats to wage the war. Unfortunately, very few of these political generals were very good, and Lincoln, and his generals who were good, knew this, but had little choice in the matter. People have spent over hundred years excusing Lee's mistakes being those of his subordinates, particularly Longstreet. But, from what I've seen Union generals like Mead and Grant were the ones saddled with inept subordinates, even if we put aside the fact that Longstreet was not an inept subordinate. In fact, for the first part of the war, the poor performance of the Army of the Potomac had everything to do with poor leadership, and continued to be a problem right up to the end. It's just that, by the end the Union had amassed enough good leaders and had the numerical superiority to overcome the mistakes their colleagues made while southern leadership in the Army of Northern Virginia took a nose dive, and mistakes were far more costly for them than for the Union.

 

[Belfoured]

& legend has it he gained a reputation for his insubordination & as we know as well a huge scandal occurred when he shot his wife's lover Philip Barton Key but we know the outcome acquitted for murder & during Gettysburg he disobeyed Meade's orders but either way Sickles was award a Medal of Honor for his controversial actions @ Gettysburg & of course losing a leg but after that he never held a field command again, & legend has it known for his insubordination & his willingness to disobey orders even when they were given by his superiors. And during Gettysburg his actions have been described as courageous & reckless. You be the judge

Sickles' absurd decision on July 2 has always been pretty easy to pick apart. His "actions" were incompetent and he devoted his energy after the battle to cooking up a dumpster load of spin.

I've always been more interested in the location of the $26,000 ($800,000 today) which "disappeared" from the NY Monument Commission's coffers while Dirty Dan headed the organization.