Deep Thoughts, with Jubal Early

[Rhea Cole]

Early was surly no doubt, but what commanding officer did he argue with? Most likely if he goes south he is in charge or Hardee, but I'm not sure when Hardee shows up here.

Hardee became a Full General (lieutenant general) in1862, Johnston 1861, Bragg 1862, Early's commission dated from 1864. Everybody "showed up" long before Early.

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

Sherman was at a long rope of supplies

What supplies are you talking about? Sherman was living off the land. He didn't have supply wagons trailing him.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

What supplies are you talking about? Sherman was living off the land. He didn't have supply wagons trailing him.

Correct. I had the supply issue in my head. My pont stands that if Sherman's armies are stopped for any period of time they will start running out of what they have gathered rather quickly.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

Hardee became a Full General (lieutenant general) in1862, Johnston 1861, Bragg 1862, Early's commission dated from 1864. Everybody "showed up" long before Early.

I'm asking in all charity, what does that have to do with my previous point? Early never argued with Lee or with Ewell in any disrespectful manner, why do we assume he would with Johnston, Bragg, Hardee or Beauregard?

 

[Rhea Cole]

Plenty of people on both sides had people shot. You're point makes little sense, nor do you have a shred of evidence that was ever enforced. You rail on people for speculation then you speculate on things with no evidence it happened. You're like a caricature on here. But to answer your question, yes, I absolutely think Davis relinquishing command of directing troops, and giving it to Lee would of been of immeasurable benefit to the Confederacy, especially if this was done pre-tullahoma. Davis visits the army of Tennessee after Chickamauga, every single corps commander, and a majority of the division commanders want Braggs ouster and he keeps him in charge, because to change him out would mean to move Beauregard or Johnston into that command. Davis's entire tenure is a sad state of continually keeping men in command because of his friendship with them in lieu of there terrible miltary acumen.

You realize, of course, that it was Davis who gave Lee the largely ceremonial position of presidential military advisor, previously held by Mrs. Chestnut's husband, after the fiasco in West Virginia had ruined Lee's reputation.

One little tidbit to mull over is that Lee was not brilliant at logistics. Compare the contemporary Tullahoma & Vicksburg Campaigns & Gettysburg's complete lack of logistical support. As Lee stated emphatically in writing, he had no understanding of the terrain, leaders or conditions outside his operations area. When a corps was transported from Bridge Port to New Orleans in preparation for the Mobile Campaign it was escorted by 40 tin clad gunboats. The war in the West was radically different from the Napoleonic contest in Virginia.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

You realize, of course, that it was Davis who gave Lee the largely ceremonial position of presidential military advisor, previously held by Mrs. Chestnut's husband, after the fiasco in West Virginia had ruined Lee's reputation.

What does that have to do with anything? It's just a random anecdote that offers nothing to this discussion.

One little tidbit to mull over is that Lee was not brilliant at logistics. Compare the contemporary Tullahoma & Vicksburg Campaigns & Gettysburg's complete lack of logistical support. As Lee stated emphatically in writing, he had no understanding of the terrain, leaders or conditions outside his operations area. When a corps was transported from Bridge Port to New Orleans in preparation for the Mobile Campaign it was escorted by 40 tin clad gunboats. The war in the West was radically different from the Napoleonic contest in Virginia.

Virginia wasn't even close to a Napoleonic contest BTW. Lee's invasion of Virginia was a large raid, he never planned to bring large supplies cause he planned to live off the land, so I don't see your point? Please give evidence where Lee was poor at logistics?

 

[ColonelBuckwalter]

Sherman's army group consisted of the Army of the Tennessee & the Army of Georgia. The list of Confederate Full Generals who opposed it is a long one. Early had neither the rank nor personal prestige to be anything but a spear carrier in the March to the Sea & Carolinas. As it was, he was not event that.

I don't really consider Bragg or Beauregard having much prestige. Bragg was dragged to Richmond after Lookout Mountain, his star had fallen. Beauregard was hated from way back by Davis and had bounced around like a rubber ball.

If you want talk prestige Hardee has done some very good things in Florida with considerably less than a lot of other comms ders in other theaters of the war. Granted, the state was largely closed off on the coast to large scale shipping. When it came to stopping union advance, Florida did an extremely good job .

That includes regular army, state troops, militia/home guard, as well as a series of independent commands that were very good in what they did. JJ Dickison and John Person. Dickison fought against regular Federal cavalry at Ocala, and managed to capture himself a ship.

Pearson managed to get men out to a federal vessel off Shell Point at Tampa during the attack of Ft Brooke, disguised a fleeing slaves. The plan to capture that ship didn't come to fruition, however it did get Pearson moved up to the farm team to big leave in Virginia. He was not well trained apparently in getting out of the way of fire, was wounded and it proved mortal.

If you really want to go there even the cow boys guarding the livestock got into the act, attacking Ft. Myers, albeit at the end of the war,band pretty much out of spite for a raid inland by the troops stationed there.

All the union had down there was Pensicola, Key West and Jacksonville. None of which do you want good at all if improperly used. And all of them launched attacks that just didn't cut it.

Blockade runners still came into places that granted were not deep water ports, but the cut off of supply that was felt in North Carolina was impossible in Florida.

The middle of the state, from the St Johns River, to the Oklawaha, to up the Silver River to the spring and up. That included troops. Though the number was small that artery was open until very near the end of the war when at sixteen shallow draft river boats were sold,their owner recovering his money put up to build them having seen the writing on the walls.

Invade Cedar Key? Kicked off. Attack Ft Booke? Fail. Olustee? Hold my beer...

The culmination of all of this Natural Bridge where union troops landed at the mouth of the St. Marks River and managed to get beat and not take Tallahassee

All this was under and later by people who had worked with Hardee. So he's looking much better to me now. They say insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting better results. Maybe Beauregard and Bragg were a poor idea.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I don't really consider Bragg or Beauregard having much prestige. Bragg was dragged to Richmond after Lookout Mountain, his star had fallen. Beauregard was hated from way back by Davis and had bounced around like a rubber ball.

If you want talk prestige Hardee has done some very good things in Florida with considerably less than a lot of other comms ders in other theaters of the war. Granted, the state was largely closed off on the coast to large scale shipping. When it came to stopping union advance, Florida did an extremely good job .

That includes regular army, state troops, militia/home guard, as well as a series of independent commands that were very good in what they did. JJ Dickison and John Person. Dickison fought against regular Federal cavalry at Ocala, and managed to capture himself a ship.

Pearson managed to get men out to a federal vessel off Shell Point at Tampa during the attack of Ft Brooke, disguised a fleeing slaves. The plan to capture that ship didn't come to fruition, however it did get Pearson moved up to the farm team to big leave in Virginia. He was not well trained apparently in getting out of the way of fire, was wounded and it proved mortal.

If you really want to go there even the cow boys guarding the livestock got into the act, attacking Ft. Myers, albeit at the end of the war,band pretty much out of spite for a raid inland by the troops stationed there.

All the union had down there was Pensicola, Key West and Jacksonville. None of which do you want good at all if improperly used. And all of them launched attacks that just didn't cut it.

Blockade runners still came into places that granted were not deep water ports, but the cut off of supply that was felt in North Carolina was impossible in Florida.

The middle of the state, from the St Johns River, to the Oklawaha, to up the Silver River to the spring and up. That included troops. Though the number was small that artery was open until very near the end of the war when at sixteen shallow draft river boats were sold,their owner recovering his money put up to build them having seen the writing on the walls.

Invade Cedar Key? Kicked off. Attack Ft Booke? Fail. Olustee? Hold my beer...

The culmination of all of this Natural Bridge where union troops landed at the mouth of the St. Marks River and managed to get beat and not take Tallahassee

All this was under and later by people who had worked with Hardee. So he's looking much better to me now. They say insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting better results. Maybe Beauregard and Bragg were a poor idea.

I will leave ranking Confederate generals by order of prestige to you.

 

[ColonelBuckwalter]

I will leave ranking Confederate generals by order of prestige to you.

No need. I have a total understanding of the way rank, and date there of goes. I've seen Crittenden on Hogan's Heroes.

What I do not have a handle on is the weird zig zag weirdness erratic nature of generals being appointed and removed in 1864-5 by Richmond. It seems like with the failed or disliked options one might have looked outside the officer pool.

 

[Rhea Cole]

What does that have to do with anything? It's just a random anecdote that offers nothing to this discussion.

Virginia wasn't even close to a Napoleonic contest BTW. Lee's invasion of Virginia was a large raid, he never planned to bring large supplies cause he planned to live off the land, so I don't see your point? Please give evidence where Lee was poor at logistics?

With all respect, Lee's plan as it was laid out in his letters to the Secretary of War & President Davis included a logistics element & the transfer of troops from the Carolina's under Beauregard to Culpepper. The support elements were to establish a base at the Potomac crossing & Beauregard was to threaten Washington. The Army of the Potomac would be forced to pull back & defend Washington. There it would be caught between Beauregard & the Army of Northern Virginia where it could be decisively defeated. That was his plan. Apparently it caused Davis' brain to squirt out of his ears. In his letter refusing to authorize the troop concentration Lee projected, Davis said he hadn't even read Lee's proposal. We know that because Meade read the letter not Lee. It was captured by Union scouts.

The references you keep requesting are in a stack of books about knee high I have read on this general subject. My suggestion would be to post the references to such pronouncements as, "… Lee never planned to bring… supplies…" It is your responsibility to support your assertions, not mine.

 

[Rhea Cole]

No need. I have a total understanding of the way rank, and date there of goes. I've seen Crittenden on Hogan's Heroes.

What I do not have a handle on is the weird zig zag weirdness erratic nature of generals being appointed and removed in 1864-5 by Richmond. It seems like with the failed or disliked options one might have looked outside the officer pool.

All you have to do is read the name of the commanders at Bentonville to comprehend the complete dearth promotion of talent in the Confederate army. As Mrs Chestnut pointed out, Lincoln lopped off the heads of generals who did not succeed, Davis just moved the same losers around. It is always wise to consult Mary Chestnut on such matters.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

With all respect, Lee's plan as it was laid out in his letters to the Secretary of War & President Davis included a logistics element & the transfer of troops from the Carolina's under Beauregard to Culpepper. The support elements were to establish a base at the Potomac crossing & Beauregard was to threaten Washington. The Army of the Potomac would be forced to pull back & defend Washington. There it would be caught between Beauregard & the Army of Northern Virginia where it could be decisively defeated. That was his plan. Apparently it caused Davis' brain to squirt out of his ears. In his letter refusing to authorize the troop concentration Lee projected, Davis said he hadn't even read Lee's proposal. We know that because Meade read the letter not Lee. It was captured by Union scouts.

The references you keep requesting are in a stack of books about knee high I have read on this general subject. My suggestion would be to post the references to such pronouncements as, "… Lee never planned to bring… supplies…" It is your responsibility to support your assertions, not mine.

What doees any of that have to do with Lee not understanding Logistics?

 

[ColonelBuckwalter]

All you have to do is read the name of the commanders at Bentonville to comprehend the complete dearth promotion of talent in the Confederate army. As Mrs Chestnut pointed out, Lincoln lopped off the heads of generals who did not succeed, Davis just moved the same losers around. It is always wise to consult Mary Chestnut on such matters.

I have her book. It's very good as a view of Richmond. But a long time before I read it seeing the way things were being done in the Carolinas hurt my mind.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

I have her book. It's very good as a view of Richmond. But a long time before I read it seeing the way things were being done in the Carolinas hurt my mind.

You should read William C. Davis's bio of Davs Jefferson Davis: The man and his hour, it's illuminating how terrible a job Davis does and how much he hurts the Confederate high command.

 

[ColonelBuckwalter]

What doees any of that have to do with Lee not understanding Logistics?

Lee understood logistics well enough to conduct two campaigns into the North. And to make it back out, onetime after taking quite the drubbing.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I have her book. It's very good as a view of Richmond. But a long time before I read it seeing the way things were being done in the Carolinas hurt my mind.

She told it like it was. Can't do better than that.

 

[ColonelBuckwalter]

She told it like it was. Can't do better than that.

Fur a first hand account it's very good.

But even she can not explain not asking for new dice once your general officers had missed the mark that much. It almost seems that after they evacuated Atlanta focus was removed from the west.

I'be still never gotten any explanation from anything I've read or anyone I've talked to except for a series of people Davis has personal grudges against, or people who were too aggressive or not aggressive enough. There seems to be no logic.

 

[J. Hanger]

I don't know. Never got into the man's personal life. I think it was on here that someone commented that the rumor was that he had a child out of wedlock, which was a no-no. I don't know if it's true or not.

Yes, it is true. Had a "relationship" with a sixteen year old young lady.

 

[Rebforever]

Early also pull Stonewall out of trouble at the Fredericksburg battle.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Lee understood logistics well enough to conduct two campaigns into the North. And to make it back out, onetime after taking quite the drubbing.

My idea of logistics are the Vicksburg, Tullahoma / Chattanooga Campaigns & March to the Sea. Having no logistical support is a curious choice.

Grant was advancing to reconnect with his base. Rosecrans created a durable supply line that extended from Cincinnati to Atlanta. Sherman marched to a commotion with the navy. Wandering off into Pennsylvania the way Bragg did in Kentucky is… speaks for itself.