De-farbing Rifles

[Bfd807]

Just curious,
Is de-farbing a rifle a violation of federal law due to the fact you are removing the original serial number? I know it gets put back on the under side of the barrel, so it is not being taken completely off. Just wondering.
John

 

[Don Dixon]

John,

Defarbing involves removing all of the manufacturer's marks, including proof marks, not just the serial number. This would be a felony if the Feds considered muzzleloading firearms to be "guns" under the National Firearms Act, as amended, But, muzzleloading arms are not "guns" covered by the act. However...state and local laws are another matter entirely. Please see the following one of my old posts from the N-SSA forum. Defarbing has been covered at various times over there, and I would suggest a forum search.

"Lets do a little Lawyer 101 on this topic:

"Federal law trumps everything else. Black powder reproductions are not covered under the National Firearms Act, as amended. I do not necessarily agree that removing manufacturers' marks is not covered by Federal law.

"But, we live in a republican system, and rights are reserved to the states.

"So, next comes state law. If state law says it is a firearm and removing the markings is illegal, then it is a firearm and removing the markings is illegal. Federal law doesn't matter, because you are being prosecuted in state court by a state prosecutor. A somewhat off topic analogy. If you are in the military and commit a crime covered by both the Uniform Code of Military Justice and state law, you CAN be prosecuted by Courts Martial and in state court. Same crime, but different jurisdictions. It doesn't happen often, but I have seen it happen.

"Next comes local law. If local law says that it is a firearm and removing the markings is illegal, then it is a firearm and removing the markings is illegal. Federal and state law don't matter because you are being prosecuted in a local court by a local prosecutor.

"And, state and local laws do differ significantly from Federal law. What is legal in East Bumf**k may be very much illegal somewhere else. New York, New York City, New Jersey, Illinois, Chicago, California, for example, are particularly unforgiving of firearms "crimes." A while back a District of Columbia resident was convicted of having a small number of unregistered muzzleloader projectiles, without the firearm or powder to shoot them. Others have been convicted in DC for possessing unregistered empty cartridge cases. If I went to the Fort for a skirmish I would not carry my muzzleloading firearms into DC while playing tourist.

"IF Congress ever moves muzzle loading firearms under the National Firearms Act - a position which would be typical of laws in almost all of the rest of the world - then a defarbed firearm would instantly be a Federal felony worth five years in the Federal penitentiary, since removing markings from a firearm covered by the National Firearms Act is a violation of the Act, and every violation of the Act - no matter how slight - is a Federal felony.

"Since firearms laws across the country are fly paper for the unwary - and a number of members of Congress are focused on tightening our "overly weak" firearms laws - why would you want to risk it so that you can have a muzzleloader from which the evil Italian makers' marks have been removed?

"Am I being cautious? Yeh. But, as a Federal special agent I spent 41 years working with Federal and state prosecutors, and I fully understand the concept of prosecutorial discretion. Even if you win it will cost you a ton of money, while the prosecutor is paid by the taxpayer and knows in which direction the political winds in their jurisdiction blow."

Personally, I think that defarbing is egregiously stupid. But, its your gun and your risk. Do what you will.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

 

[ikesdad]

John,
Personally, I think that defarbing is egregiously stupid. But, its your gun and your risk. Do what you will.

Agree. It's not a Swiss watch.

 

[captaindrew]

I'm no legal genius and can't tell you all the actual wordage but as I understand it every state in the Union except NJ considers reproduction black powder firearms the same as antiques which most longarms didn't even have serial numbers. The guys that do the defarbing are well known professionals and licensed firearms dealers and I'm sure they know the legal ramifications and what they can and can't do and wouldn't do it and openly advertise it if anything they are doing is illegal. NJ is the only state that I would tread lightly, if you look at any of the sites that sell reproduction or original firearms they all say they can't ship to NJ unless it's a FFL dealer. In NJ a firearm is a firearm no matter what it is and subject to the same regulations. There's a ton of defarbed muskets out there, I have 2 myself, and I've never heard of anyone ever having an issue.

 

[UCVRelics]

That's one reason I only buy original CW guns.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Captaindrew, I would beg to differ with you on the states that regulate muzzle loading arms. Illinois has recently added them to their laws as "Firearms"; Virginia has decreed that anything that propels a projectile with explosive gas pressure to be a "Firearm" for felons; NY State has also added muzzle loaders to the firearms list for anyone who has been adjucated as not being allowed to be in possession of a "Firearm". I'm quite sure there are more out there that have done the same thing.

As for those doing the "defarbing" I know people who do it who are not "licensed dealers", and they do not reapply the serial number to the bottom of the barrel. Regarding relocating the serial number, I seriously doubt that a hand stamped number in a different location would stand up in a court case as the "Manufacturer's Serial number"! Just my thoughts.
J.

 

[captaindrew]

Captaindrew, I would beg to differ with you on the states that regulate muzzle loading arms. Illinois has recently added them to their laws as "Firearms"; Virginia has decreed that anything that propels a projectile with explosive gas pressure to be a "Firearm" for felons; NY State has also added muzzle loaders to the firearms list for anyone who has been adjucated as not being allowed to be in possession of a "Firearm". I'm quite sure there are more out there that have done the same thing.

As for those doing the "defarbing" I know people who do it who are not "licensed dealers", and they do not reapply the serial number to the bottom of the barrel. Regarding relocating the serial number, I seriously doubt that a hand stamped number in a different location would stand up in a court case as the "Manufacturer's Serial number"! Just my thoughts.
J.

Thanks for the additional info Jobe. Illinois doesn't surprise me and I wasn't aware of the change. I don't think too much of the distinction of how it works with felons or restricted people, I assume people I talk with that's not an issue but should be taken into consideration.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Stop me if I'm wrong, but in defarbing a gun, its only legal if the serial number, manufacturer, importers names remain on the gun, you can remove them entirely, as long, and I think its the standard practice, as that the gun is remarked with those markings under the barrel out of sight, not the marking removed and nothing on the gun period.

As for me personally, I'm not crazy about defarbing guns, although on certain guns, I'd consider it as the manufacturer's marks stand out WAY to much, mainly on Pedersoli, and Chiappa. They ought to follow Euroarms' formula, their markings are perfectly fine and don't take away from the gun, but they've gone the way of the dinosaurs so nobody will do their practice with markings I bet. But Pedersoli, with their logo, and a slew of other markings, are so prominent on their muskets, its a modern eyesore, Chiappa's ain't quite as bad, but still big. To me if they kept their markings small, why defarb? But they are in business to make money and big markings advertise.

But I have a Euroarms Enfield and Mississippi, and the size of their markings I'm not bothered and have never been out to remove them. But some of the other things on those two guns...

 

[Don Dixon]

The following is copied from ATF's National Firearms Act Handbook:

"Section 7.4 The identification of firearms. 7.4.1 Serial numbers. Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm's frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120 The requirement that the marking be "conspicuously" placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch.

"7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name, are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking "legibly" means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121 Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF's ability to trace firearms involved in crime.

"7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

"(1) The model, if such designation has been made;

"(2) The caliber or gauge;

"(3) The manufacturer's name (or recognized abbreviation); and

"(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business.122

"7.4.3 Measuring the depth of markings. The depth of all markings is measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers is measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases)."

Moving the serial number to the underside of the barrel where it is not visible would not comply, and deleting the information required by 7.4.2.(1) - (4) would not comply. All of this becomes an issue if Congress brings muzzleloading firearms under the National Firearms Act, or if a state or local jurisdiction which regulates muzzleloading firearms copies the ATF language for marking for the state and local statute. Then, you have an instant felony.

The guys that do the defarbing are well known professionals and licensed firearms dealers and I'm sure they know the legal ramifications and what they can and can't do and wouldn't do it and openly advertise it if anything they are doing is illegal.

Oh, really. They are not required, at present, to be licensed firearms dealers. And, I'm sure that they have the high powered and highly paid legal staff who are experts in the firearms statutes - Federal, state, and local - to research and advise them on all the firearms laws in the United States that might impact the products that they sell, and impact the purchasers of same.

My concern here is taking a product which is legal at this point in time, and deliberately turning it into something that will not be legal should there be changes in statute or ATF interpretation of statute, just to make it look more "realistic" in the user's mind. Why take the risk? I've traveled overseas with the U.S. International Muzzleloading Team for zone and world shooting competition. Most foreign countries regulate muzzleloading firearms exactly the same way they do modern, semi-automatic, cartridge firearms; including police permits, restrictions on the number of arms permitted to be owned, locked storage requirements, and specific permits simply to carry unloaded and in a locked container from one's home to the range.

Can't happen here? Do you know anyone who owns a bump stock?

Regards,
Don Dixon

 

[Package4]

Just curious,
Is de-farbing a rifle a violation of federal law due to the fact you are removing the original serial number? I know it gets put back on the under side of the barrel, so it is not being taken completely off. Just wondering.
John

Where are you located?

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

The following is copied from ATF's National Firearms Act Handbook:

"Section 7.4 The identification of firearms. 7.4.1 Serial numbers. Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm's frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120 The requirement that the marking be "conspicuously" placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch.

"7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name, are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking "legibly" means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121 Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF's ability to trace firearms involved in crime.

"7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

"(1) The model, if such designation has been made;

"(2) The caliber or gauge;

"(3) The manufacturer's name (or recognized abbreviation); and

"(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business.122

"7.4.3 Measuring the depth of markings. The depth of all markings is measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers is measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases)."

Moving the serial number to the underside of the barrel where it is not visible would not comply, and deleting the information required by 7.4.2.(1) - (4) would not comply. All of this becomes an issue if Congress brings muzzleloading firearms under the National Firearms Act, or if a state or local jurisdiction which regulates muzzleloading firearms copies the ATF language for marking for the state and local statute. Then, you have an instant felony.



Oh, really. They are not required, at present, to be licensed firearms dealers. And, I'm sure that they have the high powered and highly paid legal staff who are experts in the firearms statutes - Federal, state, and local - to research and advise them on all the firearms laws in the United States that might impact the products that they sell, and impact the purchasers of same.

My concern here is taking a product which is legal at this point in time, and deliberately turning it into something that will not be legal should there be changes in statute or ATF interpretation of statute, just to make it look more "realistic" in the user's mind. Why take the risk? I've traveled overseas with the U.S. International Muzzleloading Team for zone and world shooting competition. Most foreign countries regulate muzzleloading firearms exactly the same way they do modern, semi-automatic, cartridge firearms; including police permits, restrictions on the number of arms permitted to be owned, locked storage requirements, and specific permits simply to carry unloaded and in a locked container from one's home to the range.

Can't happen here? Do you know anyone who owns a bump stock?

Regards,
Don Dixon

One never knows what'll happen in the realm of the 2nd Amendment, But I personally don't foresee overly intrusive laws on muzzleloaders unless it gets into the news, and I can't see there being a mass shooting by a guy with a cap'n'ball revolver or 1861 Springfield. Ignorance is the main protection for muzzle-loaders in the States, most folks have no idea people shoot them or that they're not considered firearms. While some States have clamped down, I don't see the majority doing so simply because it ain't newsworthy, after all how many drive by shooting by folks with muzzle-loaders are reported in the news? Congress and firearms is and has always been a knee jerk reaction relationship.

Personally while I'm not the biggest fan of defarbing, I'd gladly ay let it happen, as the most dedicated reenactors who do it, would turn to using up originals more often at events because of their dedication, and that practice I frown on. I've seen too many nice original guns beat to pieces at events. While the markings are an issue, there are plenty other things that need defarbing on repops, with Pedersoli's new Lorenz being an eyesore and a half, (front sight, stock wood, ramrod along with the usual minor "who cares" problems on repops).

While the markings are debatable, some repops do have things off that could use a little fixing up. But again I'm not the biggest fan of defarbs, I've seen too many Enfield repops that were defarbed then saw use at event where they were rode hard and put away wet, and then sold off where they fooled a lot of people who genuinely believed they were selling a JS over Anchor Enfield to a guy who also genuinely believed it was at several gunshows. It may be "when two idiots meet " moments, but I still feel it was a shame they happened, and while any collector worth their salt can still tell the difference defarbed or not, we should be considerate to the less knowledgeable. An original is an original, a repro is a repro, the two shouldn't meet.

 

[captaindrew]

The following is copied from ATF's National Firearms Act Handbook:

"Section 7.4 The identification of firearms. 7.4.1 Serial numbers. Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm's frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120 The requirement that the marking be "conspicuously" placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch.

"7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name, are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking "legibly" means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121 Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF's ability to trace firearms involved in crime.

"7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

"(1) The model, if such designation has been made;

"(2) The caliber or gauge;

"(3) The manufacturer's name (or recognized abbreviation); and

"(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business.122

"7.4.3 Measuring the depth of markings. The depth of all markings is measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers is measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases)."

Moving the serial number to the underside of the barrel where it is not visible would not comply, and deleting the information required by 7.4.2.(1) - (4) would not comply. All of this becomes an issue if Congress brings muzzleloading firearms under the National Firearms Act, or if a state or local jurisdiction which regulates muzzleloading firearms copies the ATF language for marking for the state and local statute. Then, you have an instant felony.



Oh, really. They are not required, at present, to be licensed firearms dealers. And, I'm sure that they have the high powered and highly paid legal staff who are experts in the firearms statutes - Federal, state, and local - to research and advise them on all the firearms laws in the United States that might impact the products that they sell, and impact the purchasers of same.

My concern here is taking a product which is legal at this point in time, and deliberately turning it into something that will not be legal should there be changes in statute or ATF interpretation of statute, just to make it look more "realistic" in the user's mind. Why take the risk? I've traveled overseas with the U.S. International Muzzleloading Team for zone and world shooting competition. Most foreign countries regulate muzzleloading firearms exactly the same way they do modern, semi-automatic, cartridge firearms; including police permits, restrictions on the number of arms permitted to be owned, locked storage requirements, and specific permits simply to carry unloaded and in a locked container from one's home to the range.

Can't happen here? Do you know anyone who owns a bump stock?

Regards,
Don Dixon

Don, sounds like you're giving me a lecture when in the end you say it's illegal if a state recognizes a muzzle loader as a firearm which is what I said when I mentioned NJ and Jobe added Illinois. Those are the only two I'm aware of. The markings you describe are for firearms. Black powder firearms are not considered firearms by the law. Here it is, Gun Control Act of 1969 Section 921 (16) Defines an antique firearm as any firearm manufactured before 1898, including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar ignition system. Replicas of such firearms are also considered antiques as long as the replica is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition. A replica is also considered an antique firearm if it uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and such ammunition is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. A muzzle loader is considered an antique if it is designed to use black powder (or substitute) and therefore can not use fixed ammunition.

 

[captaindrew]

I have two defarbed muskets, both with all the serial numbers and makers marks put underneath the barrel so they could never be faked for originals. They were both bought from reputable dealers, Lodgewood and Dixie Gun Works, who I'm 100 percent confident wouldn't sell me something illegal. Now the 2 states previously mentioned may be a problem because they do consider them firearms but I have no plans on spending much time in either with any guns of any kind on me. And no, I don't know anyone with bumpstocks but I do own several items in my gun safe that are illegal in some states but thankfully not in the one I reside in.

 

[ikesdad]

That's GCA 1968, not 1969, and by definition an antique firearm is one manufactured "in or before 1898". Which means manufactured prior to Jan 1 1899. This "antique" definition is including "any replica" of a muzzle loader also.
There are many firearms made prior to 1899 that are quite modern such as several models of Mauser that have absolutely no Federal restrictions. Now if the law is changed to include antique firearms in order to restrict those more modern firearms, then muzzle loaders will in all probability be included.

 

[captaindrew]

I apologize, I hit the 9 instead of the 8, I'll worry about ifs when and if that ever happens which I've heard of no rumblings of any changes in the foreseeable future.

 

[ikesdad]

Figured it for a typo.

 

[Craig L Barry]

"...with Pedersoli's new Lorenz being an eyesore and a half, (front sight, stock wood, ramrod along with the usual minor "who cares" problems on repops)."

I hate to hijack this thread...you can move this comment to start another thread if you like but the comment above reminded me of my reaction when I saw the first of the $1600 Pedersoli 1854 Lorenz rifles. I thought the same thing...the front sight is removable! And there is no way a bayonet is going to fit without a lot of reaming. Also the wood is all wrong. They used a dark brown walnut stock. It looks very little like any Lorenz I have ever seen. I know you can stain beech to resemble walnut, but can you make American walnut look like beechwood? The trigger is spring loaded so it returns and so on.

And most surprising of all...there is a two month wait to buy one.

 

[Don Dixon]

Don, sounds like you're giving me a lecture when in the end you say it's illegal if a state recognizes a muzzle loader as a firearm which is what I said when I mentioned NJ and Jobe added Illinois. Those are the only two I'm aware of. The markings you describe are for firearms. Black powder firearms are not considered firearms by the law. Here it is, Gun Control Act of 1969 Section 921 (16) Defines an antique firearm as any firearm manufactured before 1898, including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar ignition system. Replicas of such firearms are also considered antiques as long as the replica is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition. A replica is also considered an antique firearm if it uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and such ammunition is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. A muzzle loader is considered an antique if it is designed to use black powder (or substitute) and therefore can not use fixed ammunition.

Drew,

I'm not lecturing anyone. I'm simply pointing out that the law is whatever Congress/a state legislature and a President/Governor say it is. You then run into the interpretation of that law by the courts and/or regulatory agencies like ATF.

Case in point. I would refer you to the language of the 1994 assault weapons ban regarding magazines of "assault weapons":

"(b) Definition of Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Device.--
Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section
110102(b), is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraph:
"(31) The term `large capacity ammunition feeding device'--
"(A) means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar
device manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent
Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 that has a capacity
of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more
than 10 rounds of ammunition; but
``(B) does not include an attached tubular device designed to
accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire
ammunition.''

The clear language of the law meant that any rifle with an attached tubular magazine capable of accepting more than 10 rounds of cartridges larger than .22 caliber was "assault rifle." That meant that my .44-40 caliber reproduction of the 150 year old Henry rifle was an assault rifle. The issue was raised with ATF and it arrived at the interpretation that it hadn't been the intent of Congress to ban new production of classic lever action rifles like the Henry, Winchester, or Marlin, all of which were clearly assault rifles under the letter of the law in that their tubular magazine accepted more than 10 rounds of larger that .22 caliber ammunition. Like ATF's initial interpretation that bump stocks were not "automatic" devices, a regulatory agency's interpretation is only good as long as the regulatory agency chooses to continue to interpret it that way. That can easy change with each administration change. These interpretations, which form the Code of Federal Regulations, have the force of Federal law because they serve as the interpretation of statue unless the Federal courts intervene. It would help if Congress wrote statutes in plain English, but it never has and probably never will.

As the legislative process becomes increasingly jammed up, the nation becomes increasingly governed by Executive Orders and the regulatory agencies' interpretations as contained in the Code of Federal Regulations.

Moderators: I'm sorry for the divergence into modern law and politics, but it's necessary to answer the initial question, which was modern rather than period.

Regards,
Don Dixon

 

[captaindrew]

The language in the GCA regarding black powder muzzle loaders is pretty black and white to me and talking about a musket i don't know how else you could interpret that. With exception of course of two states that don't recognize any antique firearms at all. Now your Henry fires a 44 rimfire cartridge correct? That would make it a firearm according to the GCA does it not? That would make it subject to regular modern firearms laws right? There's no comparison trying to compare the two.

 

[ikesdad]

A repro Henry is not an antique as per the GCA 68. An original is.