Consecutive Serial Numbers.

[Certus]

Hi,
Probably a bit of a silly question, but were all batches of Civil War percussion revolvers always delivered with consecutive serial numbers ?
Just wondered whether any returned as defective would have been replaced with a later example or returned after repair and re-inspection.
Brian

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

It's not a silly question at all. It often comes up when people ask to have their serial number checked against the SRS database of known serial numbers that were shipped to particular units. Usually there are large gaps in recorded serial numbers. So, lets say you have an 1860 Army with serial #30,577. If your serial number is not found in the database, they can show you the recorded serial numbers that came before and after it. So let's say the 7th Michigan Cavalry were issued two of the guns before yours (say 30,495 and 30,501), and also received 30,655, and the next one went to the 7th Wisconsin Cav; people will tell you until they are purple in the face that there is no guarantee your gun went to either of those regiments. I forget all the reasons, but basically, as I recall, guns were not necessarily distributed in nice neat sequential serial numbers. The armouries were interested in getting guns out quickly to units and weren't concerned about niceties such as them being in a neat serial sequence. And they most certainly were not worried about people like us, collecting these guns 150 years later.

So, I think that's a reasonable summary of what I have learned from others here on the Forums, but you will likely get a more precise answr from others. UCVRELICS has commented on this in the past...I'm sure he'll be along soon enough. In the meantime, you can search past threads using keywords (and even member names) in the search function (top right of the Forum page).

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Re your 2nd question: "
Just wondered whether any returned as defective would have been replaced with a later example or returned after repair and re-inspection."

As informed by what I have absorbed from others on the Forum, and from books/articles, there was a dire need for weapons. Guns of any kind were greatly needed at the start of the war. Anything old that could be refurbished and put into service, was. Old flintlocks got converted to percussion, for example. It is documented that the South, while waiting for newly manufactured Enfields, bought up all the scrap guns from Britain from the recently ended Crimean War (e.g. Brunswick's, the Type 1 and Type 2 Enfields). Basically, they bought piles of junk that were left in the open air to rust under an awning (literally). These were sent back home for refurbishment.

Guns were repaired during the war, especially in the South. There were armories that had contracts to do that work.


EDIT: I just checked the book "The English Connection" (an excellent book, you will no doubt be piqued by the title), and apparently I got the "under an awning" part wrong. I was being overly generous in the degree of protection provided from the elements. The book states that huge piles of obsolete and damaged guns were left to rust in the open air at the Tower facility in an area known as "the ditch". Needless to say, the metal in that pile was rusted. Gotta be pretty desperate (or be a collector in the 21st Century) to buy up that pile of junk.

 

[UCVRelics]

Prior to the CW the chance of Colt's leaving the plant in consecutive # was far better. When the war ramped up and production increased that went out the window as there were more assembler, inspectors etc. I'm sure there were quite a few employees that were assembling and stamping serial # then they went to inspection by both Colt and the US Army inspector that were assigned to the Colt plant which would account for the breaking up of the sequence of the numbers. When the war ended Colt laid off over 800 employees.

On the repairs, most were sent to an small arms repair shop ie armorer.

 

[Certus]

Hi,
Thanks very much for the very comprehensive replies which are much appreciated.
Brian

 

[Certus]

Here's the reason why I originally asked the question. I have an original Remington New Model Navy revolver Ser No 30162 which I have established from Donald Ware's excellent reference book was manufactured in December 1864. The book also states that Ser Nos 29801 to 30300 (499 examples) were produced in Dec 1865 of which 250 were supplied to the navy under government contract. As this is a comparatively low number of revolvers produced, I thought maybe mine might have been more likely to have been supplied to the navy during the period had the Ser Nos been consecutive. The only thing is, mine has the remains of silver plating to the trigger guard which I would not have thought would have been a feature of weapons supplied under military contracts unless as with Colts it was standard feature of the revolver.
Brian

 

[FiremarshalBill]

Brian, I've run into the same questions regarding my Remington New Model Army Revolver (SN 50250). It was delivered to the U.S. Ordnance Department in December of 1863 as part of a Federal contract with E. Remington & Sons, dated July 6, 1863. During the month of December 1863, a total of 3,960 Remington New Model Army .44 caliber revolvers were delivered to the U.S. Ordnance Department, with serial numbers that ranged between 47325 and 51285.

National Archives records show that a Remington New Model Army revolver with SN 50043 was issued to the 3rd Arkansas (U.S.) Volunteer Cavalry Regiment in March of 1864, and that a Remington New Model Army revolver with SN 50277 was issued to the 1st Regiment New York Dragoons (formerly the 19th New York Volunteer Cavalry Regiment) in October of 1864. The Remington Society of America and the Civil War Weapons Search of Barrington, Illinois both agree that this revolver was most likely issued to one of those two Federal Cavalry Regiments in 1864. However, regiments did not always receive sequentially serial numbered weapons from the Ordnance Department, so I guess we'll never know for sure.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

serial number sequence was not important to the shipping department at Colt, and percussion arms were not shipped from Colt in serial number sequence. Sometimes there are groupings of serials in a regiment or unit, and collectors like to describe these as being "in the ______ Regiment Range" but this might be proof that a particular unit had a gun, might not.
In researching his book on the Colt 1860 Army revolver, Charles Pate inspected the never-opened shipment invoices, usually covering 1,000 revolvers sent by Colt to the US. These were prepared so Colt could get paid, and they were still stored at the Treasury Department tied up in red ribbon, aka the famous government "red tape."
He found shipments of 1,000 1860s containing a serial number range of MANY THOUSANDS.
And that's how the shipment left Colt. You can be sure that once it got to a military ordnance receiving station, those boxes were stacked without regard to serial number sequence.
All the Springfield Research records (nearly all) come from lists of serial numbers kept at the company level of regiments. No such listing was required, but was sometimes made for the convenience of a company clerk (I suppose a company clerk would have been a fellow who had kept the books at a store or business back at home in civilian life.)

 

[Certus]

Brian, I've run into the same questions regarding my Remington New Model Army Revolver (SN 50250). It was delivered to the U.S. Ordnance Department in December of 1863 as part of a Federal contract with E. Remington & Sons, dated July 6, 1863. During the month of December 1863, a total of 3,960 Remington New Model Army .44 caliber revolvers were delivered to the U.S. Ordnance Department, with serial numbers that ranged between 47325 and 51285.

National Archives records show that a Remington New Model Army revolver with SN 50043 was issued to the 3rd Arkansas (U.S.) Volunteer Cavalry Regiment in March of 1864, and that a Remington New Model Army revolver with SN 50277 was issued to the 1st Regiment New York Dragoons (formerly the 19th New York Volunteer Cavalry Regiment) in October of 1864. The Remington Society of America and the Civil War Weapons Search of Barrington, Illinois both agree that this revolver was most likely issued to one of those two Federal Cavalry Regiments in 1864. However, regiments did not always receive sequentially serial numbered weapons from the Ordnance Department, so I guess we'll never know for sure.

Hi,
Very interesting if perhaps a little frustrating, but I guess researching records, reading books, and searching forums like this is a great part of the fun we get from owning these surviving artefacts.
As you rightly say, we may never get answers to some of these questions which actually adds to the mystery and allows us to continue imagining what might have been.
I'm actually really happy to have just accurately established the date of manufacture of my Remington thanks to the surviving records.
Brian

 

[Certus]

serial number sequence was not important to the shipping department at Colt, and percussion arms were not shipped from Colt in serial number sequence. Sometimes there are groupings of serials in a regiment or unit, and collectors like to describe these as being "in the ______ Regiment Range" but this might be proof that a particular unit had a gun, might not.
In researching his book on the Colt 1860 Army revolver, Charles Pate inspected the never-opened shipment invoices, usually covering 1,000 revolvers sent by Colt to the US. These were prepared so Colt could get paid, and they were still stored at the Treasury Department tied up in red ribbon, aka the famous government "red tape."
He found shipments of 1,000 1860s containing a serial number range of MANY THOUSANDS.
And that's how the shipment left Colt. You can be sure that once it got to a military ordnance receiving station, those boxes were stacked without regard to serial number sequence.
All the Springfield Research records (nearly all) come from lists of serial numbers kept at the company level of regiments. No such listing was required, but was sometimes made for the convenience of a company clerk (I suppose a company clerk would have been a fellow who had kept the books at a store or business back at home in civilian life.)

Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the very interesting and informative response which is much appreciated.
Brian