Confederate War Aims

The war from the confederate perspective was to prove its secession from the Union was a fact, both in Law and practice.

The seceding states claimed that their secession had been completely successful in every respect of law and precedent.

The Union claimed that secession was not an established, that, the South was in the process of trying to establish its independence

The claim of the csa was that their, independence had been established, complete, and perfect in every detail. But, was that True, how could confederate states be truly independent if Federal Law was still in force and in operation, within its borders, completely independent of confederate law?
 
Why did the Confederate States of America never focus directly on the source of all its troubles - Washington, D.C.? To be more specific, why does it seem that Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee never once defined their goal as the capture of the enemy's Capitol?

They understood from their study of military history that the capture of a city or place was not the end of enemy resistance. They had, as contemporary examples, Napoleon's capture of Moscow and the British capture of Washington during the War of 1812. Lincoln could simply have shifted his government to Baltimore, Philadelphia and even Boston.

The Union Army also had a lot to do with it. If you follow classical military theory, it takes three attackers to overcome one defender. The South did not have the means to attack Washington directly. They did however, make at least two attempts that I know of to bypass defenses and attack from the side or rear. Both failed.
 
To further illustrate this fact, the Confederacy failed to gain recognition from any country in the world, whether de facto or de jure.
De facto recognition as a legal necessity-

Lord Russell to US ambassador Adams (in reference to the CSA), November 26, 1861:
"Her Majesty's Government hold it to be an undoubted principle of international law, that when the persons or the property of the subjects or citizens of a State [Britain] are injured by a de facto Government, the State so aggrieved has a right to claim from the de facto Government redress and reparation; and also that in cases of apprehended losses or injury to their subjects, States may lawfully enter into communication with de facto Governments to provide for the temporary security of the persons and property of their subjects."

There's also an interesting story about Consul Robert Bunch. The British government instructed him to contact the Confederates to gain their assent to certain provisions of the Treaty of Paris. When the US government found out about it they revoked his authority. Charles Adams (US Ambassador to Britain) in protest referred to the affair as "diplomatic negotiation."


Recognition as a Belligerent Power-

Speech of Ebon C. Ingersoll (R-Illinois), February 7, 1867:
"Gentlemen in the argument of this question seem to forget the history of the rebellion. They seem to forget that the rebellion organized a de facto government; that the States that went into secession repudiated by a solemn act in convention the act by which they ratified the Constitution of the United States, thereby becoming members of the Federal Government. Gentlemen seem to forget that they formed a government which from the very necessities of the case was recognized by our Government as a de facto government. By the laws of war and by all international law we were bound to recognize them as a belligerent power, as a de facto government. We did do it for over four years. Not only were they recognized by us, but by most of the civilized Powers of the world as a de facto government, authorized to issue letters of marque and reprisal, to make captures on the high seas, and one whose flag protected those sailing under it. But for that recognition the character of their cruisers would have been changed to that of piratical crafts. They were expressly recognized as a de facto government by the Roman Government in an official communication addressed "to the President of the Confederate States of America"....
Under what civilized Government was there ever a rebellion that rose to the power and the dignity of a de facto government? Was there ever a rebellion that made such head against the established Government as to create a new Government, occupying and controlling absolutely one third of the territory of the entire country? Was there ever before a rebellion that was recognized as a belligerent power by the civilized Governments of the world? Never, sir. You will search history in vain to produce such an illustration. There never has been before this in any country a rebellion which was recognized as a de facto government by the Government, it was contending against, or recognized by the civilized governments of the world as entitled to belligerent rights. But in this case the recognition was complete at home and abroad. The rebel government was recognized as a de facto government, entitled to belligerent rights and protected in those rights under the law of nations."
 
De facto recognition as a legal necessity-

Lord Russell to US ambassador Adams (in reference to the CSA), November 26, 1861:
"Her Majesty's Government hold it to be an undoubted principle of international law, that when the persons or the property of the subjects or citizens of a State [Britain] are injured by a de facto Government, the State so aggrieved has a right to claim from the de facto Government redress and reparation; and also that in cases of apprehended losses or injury to their subjects, States may lawfully enter into communication with de facto Governments to provide for the temporary security of the persons and property of their subjects."

There's also an interesting story about Consul Robert Bunch. The British government instructed him to contact the Confederates to gain their assent to certain provisions of the Treaty of Paris. When the US government found out about it they revoked his authority. Charles Adams (US Ambassador to Britain) in protest referred to the affair as "diplomatic negotiation."


Recognition as a Belligerent Power-

Speech of Ebon C. Ingersoll (R-Illinois), February 7, 1867:
"Gentlemen in the argument of this question seem to forget the history of the rebellion. They seem to forget that the rebellion organized a de facto government; that the States that went into secession repudiated by a solemn act in convention the act by which they ratified the Constitution of the United States, thereby becoming members of the Federal Government. Gentlemen seem to forget that they formed a government which from the very necessities of the case was recognized by our Government as a de facto government. By the laws of war and by all international law we were bound to recognize them as a belligerent power, as a de facto government. We did do it for over four years. Not only were they recognized by us, but by most of the civilized Powers of the world as a de facto government, authorized to issue letters of marque and reprisal, to make captures on the high seas, and one whose flag protected those sailing under it. But for that recognition the character of their cruisers would have been changed to that of piratical crafts. They were expressly recognized as a de facto government by the Roman Government in an official communication addressed "to the President of the Confederate States of America"....
Under what civilized Government was there ever a rebellion that rose to the power and the dignity of a de facto government? Was there ever a rebellion that made such head against the established Government as to create a new Government, occupying and controlling absolutely one third of the territory of the entire country? Was there ever before a rebellion that was recognized as a belligerent power by the civilized Governments of the world? Never, sir. You will search history in vain to produce such an illustration. There never has been before this in any country a rebellion which was recognized as a de facto government by the Government, it was contending against, or recognized by the civilized governments of the world as entitled to belligerent rights. But in this case the recognition was complete at home and abroad. The rebel government was recognized as a de facto government, entitled to belligerent rights and protected in those rights under the law of nations."

What is the difference between a fully recognized government and a fully recognized de facto government?

De Facto.

"This phrase is used to characterize an officer, a government, a past action, or state of affairs, that must be accepted for all practical purposes, but is illegal or illegitimate."

See the full above definition at the following website:


Unionblue
 
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De Facto.

"This phrase is used to characterize an officer, a government, a past action, or state of affairs, that must be accepted for all practical purposes, but is illegal or illegitimate."

See the full above definition at the following website:


Unionblue
From the standpoint of the US, the CSA was "illegal," but other nations are not held to that judgement.

De Facto

"In fact, or in effect, whether by right or not."

International Court of Justice Glossary:
De facto - in fact, or in effect, whether by right or not. Anything considered "de facto" should be treated as truth or law, not to be argued against. For example, if a country has been divided "de facto" then that means that are officially considered two nations.
 
They understood from their study of military history that the capture of a city or place was not the end of enemy resistance. They had, as contemporary examples, Napoleon's capture of Moscow and the British capture of Washington during the War of 1812. Lincoln could simply have shifted his government to Baltimore, Philadelphia and even Boston.

Good points here. I guess it would have been a public relations coup to take Washington, and might have helped with the objective of getting foreign recognition. But, given the Confederacy's disadvantage in numbers and resources, it would have been a big gamble, and probably futile ultimately.

Roy B.
 
The rebel government was recognized as a de facto government, entitled to belligerent rights and protected in those rights under the law of nations.

I guess I'm even more confused about this de facto recognition of the Confederacy. My assumption (perhaps wrong), was that foreign governments such as Great Britain needed to affirmatively extend de facto (as opposed to legal) recognition to a government claiming legitimacy. But if I'm correctly understanding this concept from the postings, as long as a government considers itself established in some form or another, then it earns the right to claim de facto status without any action on the part of others. So the Confederacy, as long as it defined itself as independent and took actions to affirm that independence, would have to be considered as a de facto government by anyone else.
 
But compared to the Union North's advances, the Confederate offensive operations seem extremely minimal at best. Some advances are understandable while on defense.
It's quite well documented that the slave power was after Empire. They pushed the Mexican War to acquire more territory. The funded filibusters in Central America and pushed for invasions of Cuba. Once a party came to power that wanted to limit the expansion of slavery they rebelled.

The notion that the confederate endeavor was motivated by a "leave us to live as we want" motivation rather than that of building a slave empire is both wishful thinking and historically inaccurate. They could have been easily left with their "peculiar institution" in tact within the Union under Lincoln but the status quo wasn't enough- they needed to expand.

"All I ask is that you disenthrall yourself with the slave power" - from the movie Lincoln, LOL.
 
From the standpoint of the US, the CSA was "illegal," but other nations are not held to that judgement.

De Facto

"In fact, or in effect, whether by right or not."

International Court of Justice Glossary:
De facto - in fact, or in effect, whether by right or not. Anything considered "de facto" should be treated as truth or law, not to be argued against. For example, if a country has been divided "de facto" then that means that are officially considered two nations.
No other nation ever recognized them as a legal government so what's the point? Belligerent status is decidedly not a legal recognition of a government. As far as the entire world is concerned outside of a few fans, the CSA never existed as an independent nation.
 
No other nation ever recognized them as a legal government so what's the point? Belligerent status is decidedly not a legal recognition of a government. As far as the entire world is concerned outside of a few fans, the CSA never existed as an independent nation.
You don't get it. Britain, France, Spain, etc, make no determination as to whether the CSA is 'legal' or not.
 
You don't get it. Britain, France, Spain, etc, make no determination as to whether the CSA is 'legal' or not.
They did. They did not recognize them. Had they deemed the leaders of the rebellion to be a legal, legitimate, sovereign government they would have recognized them. They didn't. Fantasy is fun, especially when we have to maintain long held beliefs, but it doesn't stand up to facts and history.

I get it just fine. I get that no one in any position where it mattered ever recognized the CSA as either a legal government or independent. The only people who have ever done this are the rebels themselves and modern fans who do flips and contortions to hold on to their beliefs that an absolutely horrible rebellion based on racism was somehow moral justified and legitimate. It's sad really.
 
They did. They did not recognize them. Had they deemed the leaders of the rebellion to be a legal, legitimate, sovereign government they would have recognized them. They didn't. Fantasy is fun, especially when we have to maintain long held beliefs, but it doesn't stand up to facts and history.
You don't get it. Britain, France, Spain, etc, make no determination as to whether the CSA is 'legal' or not.

Have you yet recognized that Sumpter did not belong to SC? Is historical fact just tilting at windmills?
 
It's quite well documented that the slave power was after Empire. They pushed the Mexican War to acquire more territory. The funded filibusters in Central America and pushed for invasions of Cuba. Once a party came to power that wanted to limit the expansion of slavery they rebelled.

The notion that the confederate endeavor was motivated by a "leave us to live as we want" motivation rather than that of building a slave empire is both wishful thinking and historically inaccurate. They could have been easily left with their "peculiar institution" in tact within the Union under Lincoln but the status quo wasn't enough- they needed to expand.

"All I ask is that you disenthrall yourself with the slave power" - from the movie Lincoln, LOL.
Talk about fantasy...

How many empires will the CSA have to fight to secure all of this territory?
 
There is also a book I bought last year that touches on this, and the broader late-war slavery issue.

1608754561054.png


Basically, by about September 1864, Jefferson Davis was about whole-hog ready to form something akin to a CSCT. Cleburne's Memorandum may have triggered it. Davis towards the end was already spurring debate with Southern newspapers for the possibility of arming slaves, with possibility of emancipation as compensation, literally sacrificing slavery in order to win. Win at all costs. A desperate Hail Mary. Many in Virginia were touting the idea, and with that touted a more Nationalistic Confederate/Southern mindset, which you can say persists today.
 
There is also a book I bought last year that touches on this, and the broader late-war slavery issue.

View attachment 385624

Basically, by about September 1864, Jefferson Davis was about whole-hog ready to form something akin to a CSCT. Cleburne's Memorandum may have triggered it. Davis towards the end was already spurring debate with Southern newspapers for the possibility of arming slaves, with possibility of emancipation as compensation, literally sacrificing slavery in order to win. Win at all costs. A desperate Hail Mary. Many in Virginia were touting the idea, and with that touted a more Nationalistic Confederate/Southern mindset, which you can say persists today.

I seem to recall a contemporary southern news article arguing that if the CSA took this course then everything they had been fighting for would be lost. I'll see if I can dig it out but it's well known.
 
I seem to recall a contemporary southern news article arguing that if the CSA took this course then everything they had been fighting for would be lost. I'll see if I can dig it out but it's well known.
Well, what I was trying to get at is that with the war aims, Davis was completely ready to sacrifice everything in the name of winning. Winning after all, was the CSA's war aim.

Southern newspapers were bitterly divided about the issue, assuredly you'd get different opinions from Virginia newspapers compared to South Carolina newspapers.
 
Basically, by about September 1864, Jefferson Davis was about whole-hog ready to form something akin to a CSCT. Cleburne's Memorandum may have triggered it. Davis towards the end was already spurring debate with Southern newspapers for the possibility of arming slaves, with possibility of emancipation as compensation, literally sacrificing slavery in order to win. Win at all costs. A desperate Hail Mary. Many in Virginia were touting the idea, and with that touted a more Nationalistic Confederate/Southern mindset, which you can say persists today.
He was willing to sacrifice all slavery, or willing to emancipate only the slaves that fought?
 
He was willing to sacrifice all slavery, or emancipate only the slaves that fought?
Picture it, a limited emancipation of sorts. Fight in the Confederate Army, in exchange for emancipation. No set numbers, take all comers.

Service guarantees Freedom. To quasi-rob a quote from Starship Troopers. :bounce:
 

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