Chamberlain Hat Question:

[History36]

Just curious to get some feedback if I may please:

Basically - we have a picture of Chamberlain in what has been argued among some sutlers of him holding a 'officer's private purchase forage cap' (with the deluxe thick leather bound brim).

However, my question is this - could it be possible that both *officers* and enlisted men alike could have worn the basic 'contract' US Private Purchase Forage Cap, such as the Lewis J. & Issac Phillips of New York, by chance? Reason being, various online sites state that, "Louis J. and Isaac Phillips of New York City had army contracts in 1861 for over 35,000 forage caps, for 200,000 forage caps in 1862, and contracts for some 533,000 such caps in 1864." And that, "Lewis J. & Issac Phillips of New York manufactured approximately 800,000 forage caps during the Civil War."

With Chamberlain located in down-east Maine, certainly the basic 'contract' US Private Purchase Forage Cap would have more than likely been floating round' in towns, such as Brunswick, Portland, etc. being so close to the manufacturer of Lewis & Isaac Phillips in New York. Especially with over 200,000 forage caps sent out in 1862, which was the very same year that Chamberlain enlisted (August) making the 'contract' forage cap HIGHLY abundant. If so, are there any folks here who feel that that the cap that he is holding in the image 'could' be one of those based on that reasoning, just out of curiosity? And secondly, if you're able to zoom up on the image (feel free to save it as an attachment & zoom up to get a better visual), you may also notice that the leather brim is being bent upward - the point furthest away from his hand and along his upper chest, which may be a tell-tell sign that the leather bound brim may actually not have been a thicker / sturdier leather after all (as the officer's private purchase forage caps are made today) and, instead, 'could' be the basic 'contract' US Private Purchase Forage Cap with the 20th Maine front badge and not the *officer's* Private Purchase Forage Cap, which had the thicker / sturdier leather brim.

In testing this 'theory,' lol, I stopped into Dirty Billy's Hat Shop in Gettysburg - who reportedly produces the most accurate hats available to date. I compared his and Sekela's 'officer's' cap compared to the 'contract' cap. If those two reputable hat makers build their hats exactly to period specifications, what I found was that the 'contract' cap was able to bend A LOT easier than the 'officer's cap.' The latter leather brim was very rigid and very tough to bend indeed. So, based on those points and if you look at the Chamberlain picture once more, you may see that not only does the leather brim bend easily, but also how it seems to have a few waves in it - suggesting not a very thick & razor straight leather bound brim. And lastly, although the picture doesn't show too much of the hat itself by and large, the hat Chamberlain is holding doesn't appear to be very tall in design unlike the reproduction 'officer's' caps, which is quite tall (please see attached image for comparison). Therefore, it 'could' be a 'contract Private Purchase Forage Cap' and not an 'Officer's Private Purchase Forage Cap.'

Are we splitting hairs yet, lol? In doing a ton of research on Chamberlain, I've learned that his uniform was 'far' from what Hollywood depicted him to appear as. For instance, him wearing giant sky blue cavalry pants, using a cavalry saber, wearing cavalry / artillery-styled boots later in the war, as well as a faded old 5 button sack coat during the final campaigns of the war, and so on. Thanks for your time and for any and all replies, thoughts, insight...

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Are we splitting hairs yet, lol?

Probably.

However, my question is this - could it be possible that both *officers* and enlisted men alike could have worn the basic 'contract' US Private Purchase Forage Cap,

I would guess it was very possible.
I'm sure some enlisted men had greater financial means than many officers.

 

[major bill]

Chamberlain probably purchased his own cap. He probably had various places he could purchase what ever cap he wanted. He could well have purchased his from Lewis J. & Issac Phillips of New York, but how would we know unless he wrote about buying his cap. I don't think we can see enough of the his cap in the photo to make a good guess. Chamberlin probably purchased several caps during the war and may well have had more than one at a time, one for dress and one for fatigue.

 

[major bill]

To get a bit deeper in this. Chamberlin probably purchased officer quality caps but may have purchased less expensive caps as well. Most officers his rank would have officer quality caps but their was no set rule. I would be a bit surprised if he went to have his photo taken with a common enlist man's cap, but it is possible.

 

[suzenatale]

Im not going to be much help but here is a letter from 62 to his wife found in Nesbitt's book.

 

[History36]

Thanks for the pic! Okay - got some news on the hat. I was able to collect a consensus from various sutlers, historians, etc. with a trained eye. The report is in that the hat in the picture is: actually not an officer's cap, but rather a 'Federal private purchase commercial contract forage cap style #II.' And, obviously, the badge is the infantry bugle with the numbers '20' in the very center. Interestingly, the picture above describes his hat as being a "cap" too.

It's interesting to learn that much of Chamberlain's uniform is not only quite different from the films, but also incorporates a blend of various branches of service, such as cavalry and artillery. Plus, civilian clothes like the flannel shirt described above. I recall reading from the book, In the Hands of Providence, that his wife, Fanny, even sent him clothes from home with the hope that it was what Chamberlain needed. If anyone is interested, I'm sure I could find the exact page number where I read that. Anyhow, just thought that I would share with folks here. I'm just about to buy an exact replica of this particular hat and badge, so I can post up a picture once I get it in my hands. Stay tuned, lol...

Thanks again for the posts and best regards.

 

[Package4]

Thanks for the pic! Okay - got some news on the hat. I was able to collect a consensus from various sutlers, historians, etc. with a trained eye. The report is in that the hat in the picture is: actually not an officer's cap, but rather a 'Federal private purchase commercial contract forage cap style #II.' And, obviously, the badge is the infantry bugle with the numbers '20' in the very center. Interestingly, the picture above describes his hat as being a "cap" too.

It's interesting to learn that much of Chamberlain's uniform is not only quite different from the films, but also incorporates a blend of various branches of service, such as cavalry and artillery. Plus, civilian clothes like the flannel shirt described above. I recall reading from the book, In the Hands of Providence, that his wife, Fanny, even sent him clothes from home with the hope that it was what Chamberlain needed. If anyone is interested, I'm sure I could find the exact page number where I read that. Anyhow, just thought that I would share with folks here. I'm just about to buy an exact replica of this particular hat and badge, so I can post up a picture once I get it in my hands. Stay tuned, lol...

Thanks again for the posts and best regards.

Please be aware that officers were "issued" very little and had to purchase all of their uniform, thus many officers took liberty with the style and fit. Many officers also wore a fatigue coat on campaign, shirts were all civilian for officers, though some that did not have the means were able to secure enlisted issue wear. I have a pair of enlisted sky blue trousers that I have posted picture of on this forum, that the officer converted to officer wear by having a blue cording sewn in the inseam and then had canvas sewn in the cuff area so that it would be impervious to the constant rubbing of the boot and horse/tack.

The headgear in question was most likely a Davis or Bent & Bush product, which were made for the officer trade and likely quilted with a cotton batten and silk lining, a three piece visor and a taller crown than most enlisted issue. The brim of Chamberlain's hat is against his chest and not really visible but it would be a bound three piece and the cap is crushed down and looking at the disk, is relatively tall.

 

[History36]

"Please be aware that officers were "issued" very little and had to purchase all of their uniform, thus many officers took liberty with the style and fit. Many officers also wore a fatigue coat on campaign, shirts were all civilian for officers, though some that did not have the means were able to secure enlisted issue wear."

Oh, absolutely, that's why I briefly noted that "much of Chamberlain's uniform is not only quite different from the films, but also incorporates a blend of various branches of service, such as cavalry and artillery. Plus, civilian clothes like the flannel shirt described above. I recall reading from the book, In the Hands of Providence, that his wife, Fanny, even sent him clothes from home with the hope that it was what Chamberlain needed."

Since their hats were 'privately purchased,' the range of officer gear - especially the hats - varied so much to the point that the sky was the limit. It was not uncommon for officers to use standard issue head-gear as hats tend to be the most expensive part of their kit. The sutlers agreed that Chamberlain's hat was a basic contract / standard hat because there is no binding on the brim like most officer hats or special piping around the crown. And, private contractors like Louis J. and Isaac Phillips of New York City, for example, had army contracts for 200,000 forage caps in 1862 (the same year Chamberlain enlisted), and contracts for some 533,000 such caps in 1864. Overall, they totaled approximately 800,000 forage caps during the Civil War.

Thanks for the chats & continued information to share...

 

[Package4]

"Please be aware that officers were "issued" very little and had to purchase all of their uniform, thus many officers took liberty with the style and fit. Many officers also wore a fatigue coat on campaign, shirts were all civilian for officers, though some that did not have the means were able to secure enlisted issue wear."

Oh, absolutely, that's why I briefly noted that "much of Chamberlain's uniform is not only quite different from the films, but also incorporates a blend of various branches of service, such as cavalry and artillery. Plus, civilian clothes like the flannel shirt described above. I recall reading from the book, In the Hands of Providence, that his wife, Fanny, even sent him clothes from home with the hope that it was what Chamberlain needed."

Since their hats were 'privately purchased,' the range of officer gear - especially the hats - varied so much to the point that the sky was the limit. It was not uncommon for officers to use standard issue head-gear as hats tend to be the most expensive part of their kit. The sutlers agreed that Chamberlain's hat was a basic contract / standard hat because there is no binding on the brim like most officer hats or special piping around the crown. And, private contractors like Louis J. and Isaac Phillips of New York City, for example, had army contracts for 200,000 forage caps in 1862 (the same year Chamberlain enlisted), and contracts for some 533,000 such caps in 1864. Overall, they totaled approximately 800,000 forage caps during the Civil War.

Thanks for the chats & continued information to share...

Please do not rely on Sutlers for your information, the hat in question does not have a regulation chin strap and the brim is not visible from the picture you posted. I'll see if I can find a better picture, but Chamberlain had the means to purchase quality gear and the cap was nowhere near the most expensive part of his kit.

I would be surprised if Billy Wickham even intimated that, compare originals if you want the right answer, not reproductions. Billy will be the first one to tell you that though close, he is in business to make a living and therefore there are many corners cut in the making of reenactment wear.

 

[Package4]

"Please be aware that officers were "issued" very little and had to purchase all of their uniform, thus many officers took liberty with the style and fit. Many officers also wore a fatigue coat on campaign, shirts were all civilian for officers, though some that did not have the means were able to secure enlisted issue wear."

Oh, absolutely, that's why I briefly noted that "much of Chamberlain's uniform is not only quite different from the films, but also incorporates a blend of various branches of service, such as cavalry and artillery. Plus, civilian clothes like the flannel shirt described above. I recall reading from the book, In the Hands of Providence, that his wife, Fanny, even sent him clothes from home with the hope that it was what Chamberlain needed."

Since their hats were 'privately purchased,' the range of officer gear - especially the hats - varied so much to the point that the sky was the limit. It was not uncommon for officers to use standard issue head-gear as hats tend to be the most expensive part of their kit. The sutlers agreed that Chamberlain's hat was a basic contract / standard hat because there is no binding on the brim like most officer hats or special piping around the crown. And, private contractors like Louis J. and Isaac Phillips of New York City, for example, had army contracts for 200,000 forage caps in 1862 (the same year Chamberlain enlisted), and contracts for some 533,000 such caps in 1864. Overall, they totaled approximately 800,000 forage caps during the Civil War.

Thanks for the chats & continued information to share...

The hat in question is almost certainly a private purchase officer's model, the large disk and chinstrap are indicative of such, as for the brim, I am attaching a couple of pictures of private purchase officer caps with very thin bound brims, in fact the one on the extreme right has a bound brim that is almost the same as the unbound leather brim on the enlisted cap on the extreme left (red corps badge). The officer's caps are identified and I have an equal number of private purchase officer's caps unidentified in another safe that I was too lazy to bring out. Lack of braid on a cap means very little, as you can see by the caps displayed, though the one kepi does have the subdued braid of a smart officer.

Many officers did not like to stand out as an officer due to being a target for sharpshooters.

 

[History36]

Thank you for your reply and info. Agreed, sutlers of today are out to make money just as they were back during the Civil War era. Based your experience & knowledge, who today makes an accurate private purchase Federal officer's forage cap, just out of curiosity? I've tried contacting Sekela as he has an offering on his site (I'll see if I can locate & post it after work this evening), but Sekela is extremely slow & virtually non-existent on his replies....

Thanks again for any & all info...

 

[Package4]

Thank you for your reply and info. Agreed, sutlers of today are out to make money just as they were back during the Civil War era. Based your experience & knowledge, who today makes an accurate private purchase Federal officer's forage cap, just out of curiosity? I've tried contacting Sekela as he has an offering on his site (I'll see if I can locate & post it after work this evening), but Sekela is extremely slow & virtually non-existent on his replies....

Thanks again for any & all info...

The best I know of was Joel Bouhy, but I don't think he is making them any more. Joel was one of the characters in Horowitz's book Confederates in the Attic. Joel, I believe is an adviser for Skinner Auctions. He made an unbelievable copy of an enlisted forage cap that was identified to a West Virginia soldier wounded at Berryville and subsequently died of his wounds later in Gaston WV, that is in my collection. Joel was not into it to make a living and therefor took his time and made exacting copies.

Don't get me wrong, Billy is a friend, in fact my avatar shows me wearing a Billy forage cap during Gods & Generals filming. He can make an incredible cap, but you need to special order and pay more for it. Don't buy one off the shelf. Occasionally S&S will have some in stock that are fairly nice. Greg Starbuck makes the best Confederate kepis out there in my opinion and used to make a few federal. There is a guy on Facebook, Omanski or something like that, who takes orders and shows pics of the process, his work looks pretty decent. I think he is under Caps & Kepis.

Patience is the name of the game here, to get a quality authentic hat, you'll need to special order and wait. I have been very lucky as a reenactor and collector to have met some very helpful individuals and am glad to pass on the knowledge that was passed to me. I've posted pics of about a third of my collection on this site to help others understand ACW cloth, not to brag, but to help others. When I started collecting I made some very costly mistakes, reference books and sites like this were virtually non-existent.

Billy, Sekela, S&S, Caps & Kepis are all good, but special order it if you have the patience.

All the best,

Ray

 

[History36]

Here was Sekela's link:

http://www.njsekela.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=42

Feedback in reference to the hat in question...?

Thanks again!

 

[Package4]

Just curious to get some feedback if I may please:

Basically - we have a picture of Chamberlain in what has been argued among some sutlers of him holding a 'officer's private purchase forage cap' (with the deluxe thick leather bound brim).

However, my question is this - could it be possible that both *officers* and enlisted men alike could have worn the basic 'contract' US Private Purchase Forage Cap, such as the Lewis J. & Issac Phillips of New York, by chance? Reason being, various online sites state that, "Louis J. and Isaac Phillips of New York City had army contracts in 1861 for over 35,000 forage caps, for 200,000 forage caps in 1862, and contracts for some 533,000 such caps in 1864." And that, "Lewis J. & Issac Phillips of New York manufactured approximately 800,000 forage caps during the Civil War."

With Chamberlain located in down-east Maine, certainly the basic 'contract' US Private Purchase Forage Cap would have more than likely been floating round' in towns, such as Brunswick, Portland, etc. being so close to the manufacturer of Lewis & Isaac Phillips in New York. Especially with over 200,000 forage caps sent out in 1862, which was the very same year that Chamberlain enlisted (August) making the 'contract' forage cap HIGHLY abundant. If so, are there any folks here who feel that that the cap that he is holding in the image 'could' be one of those based on that reasoning, just out of curiosity? And secondly, if you're able to zoom up on the image (feel free to save it as an attachment & zoom up to get a better visual), you may also notice that the leather brim is being bent upward - the point furthest away from his hand and along his upper chest, which may be a tell-tell sign that the leather bound brim may actually not have been a thicker / sturdier leather after all (as the officer's private purchase forage caps are made today) and, instead, 'could' be the basic 'contract' US Private Purchase Forage Cap with the 20th Maine front badge and not the *officer's* Private Purchase Forage Cap, which had the thicker / sturdier leather brim.

In testing this 'theory,' lol, I stopped into Dirty Billy's Hat Shop in Gettysburg - who reportedly produces the most accurate hats available to date. I compared his and Sekela's 'officer's' cap compared to the 'contract' cap. If those two reputable hat makers build their hats exactly to period specifications, what I found was that the 'contract' cap was able to bend A LOT easier than the 'officer's cap.' The latter leather brim was very rigid and very tough to bend indeed. So, based on those points and if you look at the Chamberlain picture once more, you may see that not only does the leather brim bend easily, but also how it seems to have a few waves in it - suggesting not a very thick & razor straight leather bound brim. And lastly, although the picture doesn't show too much of the hat itself by and large, the hat Chamberlain is holding doesn't appear to be very tall in design unlike the reproduction 'officer's' caps, which is quite tall (please see attached image for comparison). Therefore, it 'could' be a 'contract Private Purchase Forage Cap' and not an 'Officer's Private Purchase Forage Cap.'

Are we splitting hairs yet, lol? In doing a ton of research on Chamberlain, I've learned that his uniform was 'far' from what Hollywood depicted him to appear as. For instance, him wearing giant sky blue cavalry pants, using a cavalry saber, wearing cavalry / artillery-styled boots later in the war, as well as a faded old 5 button sack coat during the final campaigns of the war, and so on. Thanks for your time and for any and all replies, thoughts, insight...

Also please be aware that cavalry pants were just regular enlisted man's pants with a reinforced seat, officers of Chamberlain's rank would also wear "cavalry" boots, due to having a horse and the sword he is most pictured with is a M1851 Foot officer's sword. Probably one of the best purchases you could make, in studying ACW uniforms, is the Echoes of Glory series of 3 books, by Time Life. You can find them on Ebay fairly cheap, from there it gets more expensive, Langilleir's "Army Blue" is indispensable, but pricey.

 

[Package4]

Here was Sekela's link:

http://www.njsekela.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=42

Feedback in reference to the hat in question...?

Thanks again!

That looks like a fairly nice representation and you can see what I mean about the larger disk on the private purchase officer caps. The type I and II forage caps of the contract makers had smaller disks, particularly the type I.

 

[History36]

Thanks again - I went ahead and contacted 'Caps & Kepis' to learn what their asking price may be for one (probably all about the same - $145). I thought about posting a 'wanted' ad on this forum if anyone wanted to part with one since I'm not too picky if I can find even a used one. Thanks again for taking the time to share this info as I've enjoyed learning more about this particular topic indeed.

I had to sell off all of my gear to help pay for (rescue) a specific Civil War artifact from falling into the hands of the collector market and get it into a museum. So, I'm slowly rebuilding the gear and thought that this would be a great opportunity to learn more about, and acquire, gear that I never once delved into much previously. Please let me know if you happen to come across a decent used one (I'm a size 7 1/4") and I'll be sure to keep in touch as things progress over on this end!

 

[History36]

...just wanted to post a quick follow up: I'll be purchasing from Caps & Kepis hands-down - great communication, prices, and from from I've read, quality as well. 'Thank you' my friend for chiming in and sharing your knowledge and experience on this topic! I'll be sure to post back once I get the cap in to share pictures, etc. Thank you again!!