Can Benjamin Butler be redeemed?

[General Butler]

There you are! Where have you been? We have missed your always entertaining posts! Figures, that it would take a thread about BB to conjure you up!

lol...i am pulling together a good list of my items so i can let others take them and enjoy them

 

[CowCavalry]

lol...i am pulling together a good list of my items so i can let others take them and enjoy them

Do you by chance have any of the fabled spoons?

 

[SgtDarby8OVI]

Please allow me to add a few more items to this excellent thread on one of the war's most colorful characters. Early in the war, Butler led the 8th Massachusetts on its journey to defend Washington from secessionists. Realizing the threat posed to the capitol by secessionist mobs in Annapolis, MD, he landed his force, seized the town, and suppressed the threats to his regiment and those who followed. A few months later, while stationed at Fortress Monroe, VA, he made a controversial decision to retain enslaved people who had come into his lines, deeming them "contraband of war," and refusing to return them. Despite lukewarm support from the Lincoln Administration, Butler's decision inspired the Radical Republicans and led to the Confiscation Acts, which in turn set the stage for the Emancipation Proclamation. As already noted, Butler continued his aggressive policies of liberating and arming freed people while in New Orleans, where he gained much of his infamy. On the other hand, I always found Butler's post-war claim that he talked Lincoln out of colonizing freed people to the Caribbean to be one of his more dubious, self-aggrandizing claims, though one cannot rule out the possibility that it was at least partially true.

 

[General Butler]

Please allow me to add a few more items to this excellent thread on one of the war's most colorful characters. Early in the war, Butler led the 8th Massachusetts on its journey to defend Washington from secessionists. Realizing the threat posed to the capitol by secessionist mobs in Annapolis, MD, he landed his force, seized the town, and suppressed the threats to his regiment and those who followed. A few months later, while stationed at Fortress Monroe, VA, he made a controversial decision to retain enslaved people who had come into his lines, deeming them "contraband of war," and refusing to return them. Despite lukewarm support from the Lincoln Administration, Butler's decision inspired the Radical Republicans and led to the Confiscation Acts, which in turn set the stage for the Emancipation Proclamation. As already noted, Butler continued his aggressive policies of liberating and arming freed people while in New Orleans, where he gained much of his infamy. On the other hand, I always found Butler's post-war claim that he talked Lincoln out of colonizing freed people to the Caribbean to be one of his more dubious, self-aggrandizing claims, though one cannot rule out the possibility that it was at least partially true.

Butler saved Old Ironsides moored at the Naval Academy and quickly took The Relay Station to control tje railroads. When the Rebs tried to run a train through the station, the train was carrying the Winans Steam "machine gun" and his troops stopped the train and seized the gun and shot off the nose of the engineer in the process.
When the good citizens of MD tipped the engines over so they coudnt get into DC, his troops rscognized the trains having beem made in their New England factory. Butler had them quickly fix the trains.
Now Butler did run afoul of Genl Winfield Scott who told Butlet to cease all actions in MD and keep him fully informed...so Butler seized the telegraph and ordered ALL messages to run through him first.
I have the Butler hand written order as well as a great letter talking about Relay Station and the Winans gun

 

[General Butler]

Do you by chance have any of the fabled spoons?

I share the opinion of an LSU study from years ago that sought to prove or disprove the "spoons" issue. They determined that Butlers staff, at the request of Mrs Butler, Sarah Hildreth, did " borrow" the fabulous local church silver service for use in her NO home/HQ.
At the time of Butler going North and Banks taking over, the silver service is indeed on the inventory of items to be found in HQ and signed by the Banks team. However, when Banks leaves the silver service is no where to be found or listed.
We could assume that the Butler spoons name is a sub heading for the stolen silver service and the NO citizens wouldnt have know about the signed inventory.
Just my two cents

 

[delta rifles]

I share the opinion of an LSU study from years ago that sought to prove or disprove the "spoons" issue. They determined that Butlers staff, at the request of Mrs Butler, Sarah Hildreth, did " borrow" the fabulous local church silver service for use in her NO home/HQ.
At the time of Butler going North and Banks taking over, the silver service is indeed on the inventory of items to be found in HQ and signed by the Banks team. However, when Banks leaves the silver service is no where to be found or listed.
We could assume that the Butler spoons name is a sub heading for the stolen silver service and the NO citizens wouldnt have know about the signed inventory.
Just my two cents

I read an article not too long ago about a descendant of a member of the 4th Wisconsin who returned some items that her ancestor took from the Masonic Lodge in Pontchatoula, Louisiana during the war. I guess its never too late return ill-gotten goods, and I am sure theft by officers was fairly common as well...it's a better story if the commander himself is blamed though.

I will have to find that article.

 

[Jamieva]

In a war setting a generals accomplishments get focused more in what he does on the field of battle than as an administrator or regional commander for an occupying force. In the field he has Big Bethel and the Bermuda hundred campaign. So not a lot to write home about there.

Then we have all the southern primary sources which are extremely negative, but they are negative for a reason and have to be viewed under the bias inherent with them. When I toured Shirley plantation as a kid they showed us a chambr pot with his face in the bottom of it, and Sherwood Forest had left a room that supposedly had been vandalized by his forces and was never restored.

 

[General Butler]

We make mistakes by cherry picking our history and failing to see people as people caught up in the times and places fate places them. Butler was just a poor kid with a bum eye and chip on his shoulder. But he was a walking ironic twist: he disliked mill owners and their treatment of their employees but became a mill owner himself (the Union Cartridge Co was the largest in America through WWl), he wasnt anti slavery but deemed them Contraband setting "it" all in motion. He fought the South as best he could with the support officers given to him (at best a rag tag group both in NO and on the Hundred), He fought the KKK and our 1960s LBJ Civil Rights law was taken right from Butlers 1870s Civil Rights law.
Grant was a butcher, Lee was a Marble Man, Lincoln was a hick, Sherman was pure evil...Butler was a thief and a clown.
Cherry picking is easy but when you dig facts from the overall the depth of being a butcher, made from marble or being a spoon thief the depth isnt so deep after all.
Butler should have a statue in DC but maybe woke world would stop it.
PS...I am a slightly biased Butler guy.

 

[NedBaldwin]

In a war setting a generals accomplishments get focused more in what he does on the field of battle than as an administrator or regional commander for an occupying force. In the field he has Big Bethel and the Bermuda hundred campaign. So not a lot to write home about there.

Big Bethel gets brought up against him but he wasnt actually present
He was present at the taking of Fort Hatteras, which had issues but was successful in the end
He commanded the army portion of the successful taking of Fort Jackson & Phillips on the way to occupying New Orleans
Proctors Creek/Drewry Bluff didnt go well
But he then commanded at the successful battle of Chapins Farm in the September of 64
Fort Fisher didnt go well but an argument could be made that it was to the fault of others
So a mixed bag.

 

[General Butler]

Leonard discusses this and the idea Butler was lining his own pockets in New Orleans seems misguided. What he does appear to be guilty of is glancing the other way at dubious trading activities his brother (who was on Butler's staff) was engaged in. The brother was the one who was not financially independent and Butler was quite the opposite, so I somewhat doubt he was taking a cut. It's still a form of corruption of course, but pretty distinct from stealing spoons.

i have a letter from a Union soldier talking about Butler making money in NO. He states that Butler has played fast and loose with limimg his pockets. He describes a ship on the lake loaded with supplies and sailing at night only to have it return the next day empty. On a separate slip of paper he wrotes almost as a post script to be sure to save tje letter as it may come in handy after the war.
I also have a Reb Order sending Major Ogden to visit Butler in NO and a follow up Order giving Ogden cash to bring with him...hm.m

 

[RobertP]

i have a letter from a Union soldier talking about Butler making money in NO. He states that Butler has played fast and loose with limimg his pockets. He describes a ship on the lake loaded with supplies and sailing at night only to have it return the next day empty. On a separate slip of paper he wrotes almost as a post script to be sure to save tje letter as it may come in handy after the war.
I also have a Reb Order sending Major Ogden to visit Butler in NO and a follow up Order giving Ogden cash to bring with him...hm.m

I often wonder why people re-evaluating someone who lived way before any of us were born think they are better qualified to evaluate that person and their character better than their own contemporaries did.

 

[General Butler]

A decade ago in my Senior Seminar in Civil War, one of my female classmates wrote about Butler. She expected to vilify him easily, but by the time she'd finished researching her paper she was surprised to have reached mostly positive conclusions about his infamous time in New Orleans.

However, Butler's excessive caution at Petersburg and Wilmington ended his wartime career on a sour note.

You must ask yourself was Butler the site commander of either infantry or cavalry? He wasnt, his cautious commanders had the Petersburg door wide open but to afraid to enter...not to mention taking Pburg and cutting the rail lines would have put Butler in the WH as he drove up the tracks to Richmond.
Grant stuck Butler with also rans and tje Union paid the price

 

[breckod]

I often wonder why people re-evaluating someone who lived way before any of us were born think they are better qualified to evaluate that person and their character better than their own contemporaries did

A rather strange statement to make on a history forum.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

No.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

I often wonder why people re-evaluating someone who lived way before any of us were born think they are better qualified to evaluate that person and their character better than their own contemporaries did.

We have more information than they did.

For example, let's suppose I have a friend who I think is of great character. However, unbeknownst to me he's cheating on his wife. How valid and relevant is my opinion of his character?

 

[Nathan Towne]

From a superb Army commander (we were discussing Rosecrans in another thread) to quite a poor one.

I am most familiar with his service commanding the Army of the James, which I have studied quite a bit and I am definitely confident in saying that he really pretty clearly should never have been in a position of the magnitude in which he was in. I when you look at someone like, say Burnside, despite the calamity at Fredericksburg, when you seriously study the campaign, you can see the professionalism in terms of the demonstrations and the celerity and shape of the movements. When you intimately study the operations of the Army of the James under Butler, there is just an air of amateurish performance in terms of what is coming from the commanding general to me. I think that it is very hard to really reasonably defend his performance in the way in which he conducted the Morton's Ford incident and I don't think that he performed very well in the Bermuda Hundred Campaign, at all.

There were people available who would have very ably filled his position, who could have and probably should have been tapped to do so, in my view.

 

[General Butler]

Big Bethel gets brought up against him but he wasnt actually present
He was present at the taking of Fort Hatteras, which had issues but was successful in the end
He commanded the army portion of the successful taking of Fort Jackson & Phillips on the way to occupying New Orleans
Proctors Creek/Drewry Bluff didnt go well
But he then commanded at the successful battle of Chapins Farm in the September of 64
Fort Fisher didnt go well but an argument could be made that it was to the fault of others
So a mixed bag.

which of the Generals on either side didnt have a "mixed bag" at the end of the war?

 

[archieclement]

We have more information than they did.

For example, let's suppose I have a friend who I think is of great character. However, unbeknownst to me he's cheating on his wife. How valid and relevant is my opinion of his character?

Theres no way we have more information then they did.

They had living eyewitnesses, would have had more written accounts and records as well, as the reality is as time passes, surviving accounts and items decrease from disasters such as fire to following generations discarding items.

All we have more of is conjecture, speculation, and modern political bias..............we certainly dont have actual first hand witnesses to interview........or second hand......or even third hand..........nor do we have courthouse or warehouse records lost, personal records and accounts lost, newspaper archives lost, ect.

 

[General Butler]

Theres no way we have more information then they did.

They had living eyewitnesses, would have had more written accounts and records as well, as the reality is as time passes, surviving accounts and items decrease from disasters such as fire to following generations discarding items.

All we have more of is conjecture, speculation, and modern political bias..............we certainly dont have actual first hand witnesses to interview........or second hand......or even third hand..........nor do we have courthouse or warehouse records lost, personal records and accounts lost, newspaper archives lost, ect.

i am fortunate to have dozens and dozens of letters home...dozens of field orders...many many hand written orders...dozens of newspapers and period magazines (yeck I even have 2 totally in German)
The point being while it is true direct contact is out of the question the l
professional historian can avail themselves of as broad a resource as they may choose and develop a pretty clear (er) picture of the Butler subject.

 

[John Hartwell]

Nobody has more bias than a participant/eyewitness.