C-SPAN Talk on Meade

I agree . Interesting how he emphasized that he and Guelzo were great friends at the beginning of the lecture .
 
I'll agree that Kent Masterson Brown spun an interesting view of Meade.
 
I thought his talk was self-contradictory, taking liberties with the facts, and fanciful.

He misstated the circumstances of Meade's being ordered to command the Army of the Potomac. He claims that in his letter to his wife, Meade said, "Margaret, I am going straight at them." That's not quite what he wrote. Here's what he wrote:

"To Mrs. George G. Meade:
Headquarters army of the Potomac, June 29, 1863.
It has pleased Almighty God to place me in the trying position that for some time past we have been talking about. Yesterday morning, at 3 A. M., I was aroused from my sleep by an officer from Washington entering my tent, and after waking me up, saying he had come to give me trouble. At first I thought that it was either to relieve or arrest me, and promptly replied to him, that my conscience was clear, void of offense towards any man; I was prepared for his bad news. He then handed me a communication to read; which I found was an order relieving Hooker from the command and assigning me to it. As, dearest, you know how reluctant we both have been to see me placed in this position, and as it appears to be God's will for some good purpose—at any rate, as a soldier, I had nothing to do but accept and exert my utmost abilities to command success. This, so help me God, I will do, and trusting to Him, who in his good pleasure has thought it proper to place me where I am, I shall pray for strength and power to get through with the task assigned me. I cannot write you all I would like. I am moving at once against Lee, whom I am in hopes Couch will at least check for a few days; if so, a battle will decide the fate of our country and our cause. Pray earnestly, pray for the success of my country, (for it is my success besides). Love to all. I will try and write often, but must depend on George."

Brown tends to take liberties like this, making his presentation problematic. He says at one point Meade had no topographic maps and at another point he says Meade looked at his map and saw that Pipe Creek would be a good place for a defensive line. Such would not be the case if Meade had no topographic maps. He gives a fairly lengthy account of what he claims Dennis Hart Mahan taught at West Point over twenty years earlier. He claims Mahan was a disciple of Carl von Clausewitz. He quotes from an 1847 book by Mahan. Then he assumes all the commanders had read this and had remembered what Mahan had said at West Point more than twenty years previous to the battle. Of course he brings in Jomini, claiming the commanders had read and digested Clausewitz, Jomini, and Mahan. Well, that's poppycock. First of all, Clausewitz wasn't translated into English until 1873, well after the Civil War. West Point was not a school for generals. It was an engineering school, turning out not general officers but lieutenants who would, if they led anyone at all, would lead only small detachments. Nineteenth Century officers prior to the Civil War generally didn't spend their time reading military treatises. Henry W. Halleck was the exception, not the rule. They learned how to be company grade officers.

"The study of generalship was also lacking at the Military Academy, with the sole sources of exposure to these complex concepts the brief period of instruction from Professor Mahan and individual fascination with the legacy of Napoleon and his conquests, which were held as the epitome of military skill. In the midst of an educational experience dominated by practical engineering and drill, Professor Mahan offered a nine-hour seminar on 'The Science of War,' which appeared as only a small part of the course on fortifications and military engineering. Yet for the cadets at antebellum West Point, this class was not a foundation for further study but their only formal exposure to the study of military history, and it fell short of inspiring intellectual growth by any measure. The brief course actually could afford very little time spent on the study of military history and fostered no follow-on program for self-study be[sides the often small Napoleon Club of faculty and cadets that focused on the principles of the Corsican master of war. Mahan deserves credit as the author of one of the first American contributions to the study of war, yet his seminal work, Outpost, was more a text on field fortifications and minor tactics than a practical guide on strategy, military policy, or operational art." [Thomas J. Goss, The War Within the Union High Command: Politics and Generalship During the Civil War, p. 10

Brown's entire presentation smacks of someone who is trying to twist the evidence to fit what he wants to be true instead of having the evidence tell him what was true. One is best advised to corroborate everything he says with other sources.
 
He misstated the circumstances of Meade's being ordered to command the Army of the Potomac. He claims that in his letter to his wife, Meade said, "Margaret, I am going straight at them." That's not quite what he wrote. Here's what he wrote:

'Tis unfortunate that this was one of the only presentations that they did not allow for questions, afterwards, as I had plenty. The book signing venue was not conducive to asking questions, nor did the thronging masses of people waiting in line have the patience for one-on-one discussions with the author.

I wonder if the author requested this arrangement in anticipation of much push back?
 
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I thought his talk was self-contradictory, taking liberties with the facts, and fanciful.

He misstated the circumstances of Meade's being ordered to command the Army of the Potomac. He claims that in his letter to his wife, Meade said, "Margaret, I am going straight at them." That's not quite what he wrote. Here's what he wrote:

"To Mrs. George G. Meade:
Headquarters army of the Potomac, June 29, 1863.
It has pleased Almighty God to place me in the trying position that for some time past we have been talking about. Yesterday morning, at 3 A. M., I was aroused from my sleep by an officer from Washington entering my tent, and after waking me up, saying he had come to give me trouble. At first I thought that it was either to relieve or arrest me, and promptly replied to him, that my conscience was clear, void of offense towards any man; I was prepared for his bad news. He then handed me a communication to read; which I found was an order relieving Hooker from the command and assigning me to it. As, dearest, you know how reluctant we both have been to see me placed in this position, and as it appears to be God's will for some good purpose—at any rate, as a soldier, I had nothing to do but accept and exert my utmost abilities to command success. This, so help me God, I will do, and trusting to Him, who in his good pleasure has thought it proper to place me where I am, I shall pray for strength and power to get through with the task assigned me. I cannot write you all I would like. I am moving at once against Lee, whom I am in hopes Couch will at least check for a few days; if so, a battle will decide the fate of our country and our cause. Pray earnestly, pray for the success of my country, (for it is my success besides). Love to all. I will try and write often, but must depend on George."

Brown tends to take liberties like this, making his presentation problematic. He says at one point Meade had no topographic maps and at another point he says Meade looked at his map and saw that Pipe Creek would be a good place for a defensive line. Such would not be the case if Meade had no topographic maps. He gives a fairly lengthy account of what he claims Dennis Hart Mahan taught at West Point over twenty years earlier. He claims Mahan was a disciple of Carl von Clausewitz. He quotes from an 1847 book by Mahan. Then he assumes all the commanders had read this and had remembered what Mahan had said at West Point more than twenty years previous to the battle. Of course he brings in Jomini, claiming the commanders had read and digested Clausewitz, Jomini, and Mahan. Well, that's poppycock. First of all, Clausewitz wasn't translated into English until 1873, well after the Civil War. West Point was not a school for generals. It was an engineering school, turning out not general officers but lieutenants who would, if they led anyone at all, would lead only small detachments. Nineteenth Century officers prior to the Civil War generally didn't spend their time reading military treatises. Henry W. Halleck was the exception, not the rule. They learned how to be company grade officers.

"The study of generalship was also lacking at the Military Academy, with the sole sources of exposure to these complex concepts the brief period of instruction from Professor Mahan and individual fascination with the legacy of Napoleon and his conquests, which were held as the epitome of military skill. In the midst of an educational experience dominated by practical engineering and drill, Professor Mahan offered a nine-hour seminar on 'The Science of War,' which appeared as only a small part of the course on fortifications and military engineering. Yet for the cadets at antebellum West Point, this class was not a foundation for further study but their only formal exposure to the study of military history, and it fell short of inspiring intellectual growth by any measure. The brief course actually could afford very little time spent on the study of military history and fostered no follow-on program for self-study be[sides the often small Napoleon Club of faculty and cadets that focused on the principles of the Corsican master of war. Mahan deserves credit as the author of one of the first American contributions to the study of war, yet his seminal work, Outpost, was more a text on field fortifications and minor tactics than a practical guide on strategy, military policy, or operational art." [Thomas J. Goss, The War Within the Union High Command: Politics and Generalship During the Civil War, p. 10

Brown's entire presentation smacks of someone who is trying to twist the evidence to fit what he wants to be true instead of having the evidence tell him what was true. One is best advised to corroborate everything he says with other sources.
:thumbsup:
 
I've seen the lecture and found it good and plausibly presented. I don't have that much knowledge about Meade just yet to really evaluate it though. I'll therefore follow @cash 's advice and corroborate what I learned with other sources. :)

'Tis unfortunate that this was one of the only presentations that they did not allow for questions, afterwards, as I had plenty. The book signing venue was not conducive to asking questions, nor did the thronging masses of people waiting in line have the patience for one-on-one discussions with the author.

I wonder if the author requested this arrangement in anticipation to much push back?
I found it odd too that there were no questions. All the other talks I've seen had time for questions afterward.
 
'Tis unfortunate that this was one of the only presentations that they did not allow for questions, afterwards, as I had plenty. The book signing venue was not conducive to asking questions, nor did the thronging masses of people waiting in line have the patience for one-on-one discussions with the author.

I wonder if the author requested this arrangement in anticipation of much push back?

As @Bee knows, I spoke with a couple of historians after that talk, one of whom is writing a biography of Meade, and asked if they thought his claims about Meade remembering Mahan's words and using Clausewitz and Jomini held water. They were skeptical as well.
 
As @Bee knows, I spoke with a couple of historians after that talk, one of whom is writing a biography of Meade, and asked if they thought his claims about Meade remembering Mahan's words and using Clausewitz and Jomini held water. They were skeptical as well.

I especially liked the lively discussions in regard to this simple fact ;):

First of all, Clausewitz wasn't translated into English until 1873, well after the Civil War.
 
'Tis unfortunate that this was one of the only presentations that they did not allow for questions, afterwards, as I had plenty. The book signing venue was not conducive to asking questions, nor did the thronging masses of people waiting in line have the patience for one-on-one discussions with the author.

I wonder if the author requested this arrangement in anticipation of much push back?
I watched this over the weekend as well. Awesome that you were able to be there in person. Had I been sitting next to you I would have had some questions as well, or rather watched you ask the questions and enjoy the show...:smile:. I was scratching my head from the moment his speech began...
 
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'Tis unfortunate that this was one of the only presentations that they did not allow for questions, afterwards, as I had plenty. The book signing venue was not conducive to asking questions, nor did the thronging masses of people waiting in line have the patience for one-on-one discussions with the author.

I wonder if the author requested this arrangement in anticipation of much push back?
There seems to be several criticisms of Brown, the main one being that he is a lawyer, not a historian and he tends to play fast and loose with the facts. He did wear a bowtie well however (which is an art in itself) and I too found it rather peculiar that no questions were allowed.
 
There seems to be several criticisms of Brown, the main one being that he is a lawyer, not a historian and he tends to play fast and loose with the facts. He did wear a bowtie well however (which is an art in itself) and I too found it rather peculiar that no questions were allowed.

Who criticized him for being a lawyer?
 
Who criticized him for being a lawyer?
Actually, I think that he said that he was a lawyer and the criticisms came from reviews of his past works. And before the lawyers come after me, I personally have nothing against them.
 
There seems to be several criticisms of Brown, the main one being that he is a lawyer, not a historian and he tends to play fast and loose with the facts.

Being a lawyer should have/would have normally prepared a person to handle the evidence required to be a good historian. It is one of those professions that is a great advantage to the non-academic historian ( of which I have plenty of admiration for this group)
 
Being a lawyer should have/would have normally prepared a person to handle the evidence required to be a good historian. It is one of those professions that is a great advantage to the non-academic historian ( of which I have plenty of admiration for this group)

And he should be experienced enough to know what to include and cut out so he would have time for questions if he wanted questions asked. That tells me he deliberately went overtime to avoid questions.
 
And he should be experienced enough to know what to include and cut out so he would have time for questions if he wanted questions asked. That tells me he deliberately went overtime to avoid questions.

I believe that he did not intend to have a Q & A session from the get go. We had a long break after his presentation, if I recall. Plenty of other presentations went overtime regardless of the schedule, and in this case, there was no one after him.
 
I was pretty impressed with his discussion of maps and what Reynolds would have planned to do. Brown never says in so many words that Reynolds was making a reconnaissance in force---something new to me. I would have liked to have seen more discussion of Day 2, but it took a long time to set the stage. I think Meade comes off well, but am not familiar with all the details the rest of you are. I can only watch that discussion. Is the problem that the death of Reynolds supposedly unhinged a good plan to fall back once the Confederates had deployed (as per Brown)?
 
I believe that he did not intend to have a Q & A session from the get go. We had a long break after his presentation, if I recall. Plenty of other presentations went overtime regardless of the schedule, and in this case, there was no one after him.
Thanks for the insight of an observer who has enough detailed knowledge to ask the right questions. I do recall being disappointed that there were no questions.
 
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