Ammo Buck n ball

[Cavalier]

It has been my impression that using buck and ball ammunition in smooth bore muskets was primarily an American thing. It seems the Mexican army used it at the Alamo and the Mexican American war, which I was not aware of.

Is anyone aware if any other armies used buck and ball ammunition in their smooth bore muskets?

Thanks in advance to anyone who cares to comment.

John

 

[Urrikane]

Most of the European armies, used the Buck and ball

see this link

http://kabinettskriege.blogspot.com/2018/05/military-buckshot-in-mid-eighteenth.html

 

[FedericoFCavada]

Swedish infantry, and I believe the Danes too, were frequently issued single-ball and double-ball cartridges. The idea was that if faced by cavalry, they were to fix bayonets and load the double-ball cartridges. So the use of multi-ball cartridges was a sort of "variation on a theme" to the buck and ball cartridge loads.

In the case of the United States, infantry received half of their cartridges for a smooth bore musket as single-ball cartridges, and the other half buck and ball cartridges.

 

[poorjack]

Yes, very common.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

I'll re-post this receipt for only one of many Confederate orders from Eley Brothers in England for 220 thousand cartridges. Some of these receipts were in a group of P53 orders, and the cartridges could have possibly been used in rifled guns also

.

 

[UCVRelics]

What They Said

 

[Pollaco]

I was not aware of the Mexican Army using it. But they were using British surplus Brown Besses so I guess some British instructor showed them how to load and with what. I have read where they had some "bad powder" though.

 

[Cavalier]

@Urrikane Thanks for the link to the article!

 

[Cavalier]

All hands: Thanks to everyone who commented. I am not going to tell you guys how long I have believed buck and ball was an American thing.

John

 

[thomas aagaard]

and I believe the Danes too, were frequently issued single-ball and double-ball cartridges.
The idea was that if faced by cavalry, they were to fix bayonets and load the double-ball cartridges

In the danish army in the 1850ties 20% of the infantry had rifle muskets and everyone was issued a smoothbore.
(So yes, 20% had two guns. They used the smoothbore for drill, guard-duty, blank firing during field drills and similar peacetime activities. Saving the rifled guns for live firing and actual combat*)
For the smoothbore a buck and ball cartridge was used in addition to a normal one.

And I believe you are correct that it was suppose to be used against cavalry. In the field a soldier was suppose to have 55 ordinary cartridges and 5 buck and ball. (according to a 1855 book that was used for teaching NCOs)

If it was suppose to be used in a general firefight against enemy infantry only having 5 of them make little sense.
Having 20 or even 30 buck and ball would make more sense to me.

----

* By 1863 all the smooth-bores had been rifled and the 1863 drill book, do have a note saying that during "dry" drill, the ramrods must not be used... to protect the rifling from wear. Only when loading blanks for field exercises or doing live firing are they used.

This also mean that the buck and ball cartridge was not in use during the war in 1864.
(and wrong decision in my opinion. As I see it most danish soldiers did most likely not have the marksman skills needed to hit at long range anyway and the terrain in warzone was full of hedges comparable to what most know from the fighting in Normandy in 1944.
So the combat range for most infantry fights was rather close range anyway. Firing buck and ball might have helped level the playing field against Prussian breechloaded rifles)

 

[Peter Stines]

I was not aware of the Mexican Army using it. But they were using British surplus Brown Besses so I guess some British instructor showed them how to load and with what. I have read where they had some "bad powder" though.

The Mexican powder was notoriously bad. (This is NOT intended as an insult/derogatory or "hating on" on Mexicans) Simply stated the powder mills used too much Sulphur and to compensate, cartridge charges were increased. Many witnesses said that the soldado frequently fired from the hip to avoid the recoil. Several accounts from the Texas War mention the quality of the "polvara" and that it didn't compare to the "double DuPont" used by many of the Americans. Yes, Mexico used B&B. After the fall of the Alamo, Joe the servant of Colonel Travis was wounded in the side with a buck-shot. (He was also pricked with a bayonet) And Mrs. Dickinson was hit in the calf with a shot. It doesn't appear to have been a dangerous wound and it was possibly a buck-shot as she was able to walk afterwards. Use of B&B probably goes back to the days of match-locks. It was definitely used during the F&I War. (George Washington was an advocate of it for brush and forest fighting) Mexico used the India Pattern Brown Bess and the Baker rifle but also had some 20,000 U.S. muskets bought back in 1824. (Probably contract 1812 or 1816 types) There were also some older Spanish muskets from the 1750's in use. In the 1840's they bought some Austrian rifles. By the time of the Battle of Puebla (Cinco de Mayo) there were some US Springfields and some Enfields in Mexico alongside the old Brown Bess.

 

[Peter Stines]

In the danish army in the 1850ties 20% of the infantry had rifle muskets and everyone was issued a smoothbore.
(So yes, 20% had two guns. They used the smoothbore for drill, guard-duty, blank firing during field drills and similar peacetime activities. Saving the rifled guns for live firing and actual combat*)
For the smoothbore a buck and ball cartridge was used in addition to a normal one.

And I believe you are correct that it was suppose to be used against cavalry. In the field a soldier was suppose to have 55 ordinary cartridges and 5 buck and ball. (according to a 1855 book that was used for teaching NCOs)

If it was suppose to be used in a general firefight against enemy infantry only having 5 of them make little sense.
Having 20 or even 30 buck and ball would make more sense to me.

----

* By 1863 all the smooth-bores had been rifled and the 1863 drill book, do have a note saying that during "dry" drill, the ramrods must not be used... to protect the rifling from wear. Only when loading blanks for field exercises or doing live firing are they used.

This also mean that the buck and ball cartridge was not in use during the war in 1864.
(and wrong decision in my opinion. As I see it most danish soldiers did most likely not have the marksman skills needed to hit at long range anyway and the terrain in warzone was full of hedges comparable to what most know from the fighting in Normandy in 1944.
So the combat range for most infantry fights was rather close range anyway. Firing buck and ball might have helped level the playing field against Prussian breechloaded rifles)

There was an INCREASE in orders for b&b all the way up '65 among Confederates. And for guarding the camp at night the US used a buckshot cartridge with 12 buck. Not sure when they stopped using it and it must have patterned like a pin-ball machine beyond 20 yards but buck isn't intended for long range or precision fire.

 

[Pollaco]

The Mexican powder was notoriously bad. (This is NOT intended as an insult/derogatory or "hating on" on Mexicans) Simply stated the powder mills used too much Sulphur and to compensate, cartridge charges were increased. Many witnesses said that the soldado frequently fired from the hip to avoid the recoil. Several accounts from the Texas War mention the quality of the "polvara" and that it didn't compare to the "double DuPont" used by many of the Americans. Yes, Mexico used B&B. After the fall of the Alamo, Joe the servant of Colonel Travis was wounded in the side with a buck-shot. (He was also pricked with a bayonet) And Mrs. Dickinson was hit in the calf with a shot. It doesn't appear to have been a dangerous wound and it was possibly a buck-shot as she was able to walk afterwards. Use of B&B probably goes back to the days of match-locks. It was definitely used during the F&I War. (George Washington was an advocate of it for brush and forest fighting) Mexico used the India Pattern Brown Bess and the Baker rifle but also had some 20,000 U.S. muskets bought back in 1824. (Probably contract 1812 or 1816 types) There were also some older Spanish muskets from the 1750's in use. In the 1840's they bought some Austrian rifles. By the time of the Battle of Puebla (Cinco de Mayo) there were some US Springfields and some Enfields in Mexico alongside the old Brown Bess.

I've heard about that firing from the hip by soldiers but it never occured to me that it was because of recoil. I had always heard it was because the muskets were heavy and the soldiers were of small stature. The heavy powder charge makes sense.

 

[FedericoFCavada]

Recall that if soldiers are drilled and trained to fire as quickly as possible, there is a natural tendency to shoot high. Poorly trained troops may have couched the butt stock in the armpit, which also would make the shot go high. Turning away from the flash in the pan, will similarly be deleterious to results downrange.

 

[Rhea Cole]

The U.S. Army commissioned a study to compare the weapons in used during the Civil War. Some of you may have The Rifled Musket by Claud E. Fuller in your library. A squad of ten ordinary soldiers fired five shots by volley, file & individually as skirmishers. The paper targets were tabulated & the hits marked on charts that are published in the original.

At 200 yards, 150 .69 rounds fired, all but two shots struck by rifle fire.
AT 500 yards 50 .58 rounds fired, 43 struck by rifle fire

At 200 yards 150 shots of .69 single ball & three buckshot fired, 70 balls struck the target. 60 buckshot hit the target, virtually all the buckshot did not penetrate the paper target. At 300 yards, none of the buck shot stuck the target.

Throughout the trial, similar results were shown by various caliber smoothbore buck & ball firings. Beyond 100 yards hits fell off precipitously.

At Stones River, 60% of Bragg's infantry was armed with smoothbores. As his regiments formed up in the cedars 800 yards from the line of infantry & 58 artillery pieces that barred their way to victory, the Confederates were no more threat to the cannoneers who were pounding them than a phalanx of Macedonian pikemen 2,000 years before them. None of them advanced to within 100 yards where their buck & ball would be effective. The same thing happened on the third day of the battle. On those days, smooth bore muskets were almost harmless vs the Union artillery. I have a .69 ball recovered on the battlefield that I show along with the other types of projectiles used during the battle.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

How big were the targets ?
Can't dig out my copy of The Rifled Musket, my bookcase is buried by guns leaning on it after the Franklin show. NO, not new just
re-organizing...

 

[Rhea Cole]

How big were the targets ?
Can't dig out my copy of The Rifled Musket, my bookcase is buried by guns leaning on it after the Franklin show. NO, not new just
re-organizing...

Maybe it is in there somewheres, about everything else you would ever want to know about Civil War long guns is. I don't find a reference to the size of the targets. They are obviously a standard size, so nobody bothered to say how big they were.

 

[Peter Stines]

I've heard about that firing from the hip by soldiers but it never occured to me that it was because of recoil. I had always heard it was because the muskets were heavy and the soldiers were of small stature. The heavy powder charge makes sense.

Yep it was a little of both. The average "soldado" of that period probably weighed less than 150 pounds and stood between 5' and maybe 5' 4". There were probably some men taller and heavier. The Indian conscripts were even smaller. They got the worst end of the deal when it came to clothing and weapons. Very little drill/training. From what I'm reading they got a canvas uniform, a plain shako, a skimpy blanket, NO OVERCOAT and basic accouterments. They SUFFERED BIG TIME during the winter. But being from a tropical climate and being considered "inferior" they were just cannon fodder. I have an original India Patterns "Bess" and I think it weighs about 10 pounds. I have a repro Bess and it weighs about the same but I haven't fired it from the hip except with blank.

 

[Peter Stines]

For what it's worth, I was browsing through some ammo catalogs (Cheaper than Dirt, etc) I saw some shot gun shells listed for police/SWAT and these were loaded "buck and ball". That being, a round ball (not a slug!) and about 6-8 buck. Probably hard lead. But if you are going to stop a speeding car, that would probably do it. So the old ideas are still around...………….

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

The Brits used Buck and Ball in their Brown Besses.