Barrel proofing question

[Shootist]

Hi I'm new to the forum, not so new to
collecting or hoarding as some say. Mostly a much different era but over the years pick up a musket or 2 every so often if it speaks to me I'd say.
I had a pic of a barrel sent to me prior to signing purchase agreement.
I understand the two 25's are caliber or bore diameter. I also am familiar with the Birmingham proofs.
But i'm not familiar with the two 45's or the faint letters between the two 25's.
I have seen the three chisel marks so to speak on many others but still don't know what they mean. I'm also not familiar with the T34 stamp.
Any direction you could point me in would be appreciated.

 

[Old Soldier]

The upper 'bar' is to determine if the tang/barrel plug is fitted correctly. The '45's are likely to be a form of 'serial' which tells which plug belongs with which barrel during disassembly/repair. The four strikes after the lower proof stamp are the assembler's mark which should be found on the edge of the lockplate and on all components of the rifle. The caliber is .577"

 

[Shootist]

The upper 'bar' is to determine if the tang/barrel plug is fitted correctly. The '45's are likely to be a form of 'serial' which tells which plug belongs with which barrel during disassembly/repair. The four strikes after the lower proof stamp are the assembler's mark which should be found on the edge of the lockplate and on all components of the rifle. The caliber is .577"

Thanks Soldier for the information, it's a great help.
When it arrives I'll have to look for the assemblers marks in the back of the lock.
Any idea what the 3 or 4 faint letters between the two 25's are for?
It looks like the letter I then around the 25 FFP or maybe FEP? I haven't been able to find anything on the T34 either. This was not a government rifle as far as I know.

 

[Old Soldier]

The big problem with these rifles is that you need more than just the barrel photos. This is unusual in that it has the proof marks UNDER the barrel - most originals have them on the left side of the visible barrel when fitted. Thinking on, the separate chamber and flash hole is more like a repro P53 (Parker Hale, etc) as the 1860 P53s were one piece and the plug fitted into the bore.

Real P53 - note the line-up mark on top between barrel and tang and proof on side.

 

[JOHN42768]

Thanks Soldier for the information, it's a great help.
When it arrives I'll have to look for the assemblers marks in the back of the lock.
Any idea what the 3 or 4 faint letters between the two 25's are for?
It looks like the letter I then around the 25 FFP or maybe FEP? I haven't been able to find anything on the T34 either. This was not a government rifle as far as I know.

Welcome, enjoy

 

[Shootist]

Welcome, enjoy

Thanks again Soldier.
So I'm told by seller this one is a p56/58
"bar and band" by JD Dougall in Glasgow.
It was apparently a private purchase for royal bank in Scotland and it's barrel is marked royal bank number 6 where normally the "25's" would be.
It's a 3 groove barrel. Front sight has had another added over the original I'm told for "shooting " purposes.
here are some pictures I was able to retrieve of it. Like I said in first post I don't have possession yet. I'm really digging on this one, it's costly. Thanks for pointing out that the touch hole appears separate from the barrel. rather than just a breach plug. I pulled my very early parker hale as you stated and it is the same. i'm having a difficult time trying to find a reference to this type of barrel.

 

[Shootist]

Here is one more

 

[Old Soldier]

It is a Enfield P56 bar on band. This had three-groove rifling. It is unusual in that it has the separate breech. As I stated earlier, they were mad in one piece with a breech plug/tang. It is possibly a later repair, when the foresight was added. Many were made as private purchase for Volunteers as this one was. Later ones had a shorter barrel and a bayonet bar on the barrel, Dougall is a famed gunmaker

 

[Shootist]

It is a Enfield P56 bar on band. This had three-groove rifling. It is unusual in that it has the separate breech. As I stated earlier, they were mad in one piece with a breech plug/tang. It is possibly a later repair, when the foresight was added. Many were made as private purchase for Volunteers as this one was. Later ones had a shorter barrel and a bayonet bar on the barrel, Dougall is a famed gunmaker

Thanks Soldier. For the info you have provided. I'm uneasy at this point with the two piece barrel. Can't find a picture or written reference of one in that period. Your possible explanation makes good sense.

 

[Old Soldier]

It may well be an historical rifle too. There was no reason for the Bank to have rifles at all so there has to be another explanation.

In 1859 invasion scares in Britain prompted the creation of the Rifle Volunteers - a 'citizens army'. They bought their own uniforms (dark 'rifle' green or grey) along the lines of the current military dress. They also had to buy their own rifles from civilian sources. Although there is no written record of this, it is said that the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) helped to equip their own employees to form a company in Edinburgh, like a number of other organisations at the time.

• 7th (Bankers) Company, formed 31 August 1859

Queen's Edinburgh Rifles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The RBS may well have armed their volunteers as bank clerks were not too well paid. Later the state supplied arms. The Volunteers were also the basis of shooting clubs using their new rifles. It may be that this rifle was used for competition and was upgraded for shooting later on. Since it may have involved the alterations to the barrel it would have to be re-proofed and would explain the proof marks underneath, as the old proof marks would have been removed in the conversion and new onees would have damaged the inscriptions on the barrel.
BTW - the name under the proof may well be J TURNER.

 

[Shootist]

What an interesting, group of information.
I find it fascinating.
The owner has posted in the early 2000s
that they apparently contacted the archivist of RBS( thanks for the acronym!) & they had told him they had purchased the rifle in 1859 for armed uniformed security and in 1861/62 probably sold off when replacing their long arms with pistols. The rifle back in early 2ks was purchased from an antique dealer CW collection how it got to the states is anyone's guess according to seller.
I've never purchased on a story but combined with what you have presented it seems plausible.
The info you've provided has been an education.

 

[Old Soldier]

Welcome.

 

[Shootist]

Welcome.

So the sale has fallen through. Probably saved me some headache based on their reaction and responses.
The seller did not like being asked about the barrel configuration was quite agitated and became accusatory and had a few choice words for me and terminated the sale. Thanks for the supplied information It has been an interesting lesson.

 

[Old Soldier]

So the sale has fallen through. Probably saved me some headache based on their reaction and responses.
The seller did not like being asked about the barrel configuration was quite agitated and became accusatory and had a few choice words for me and terminated the sale. Thanks for the supplied information It has been an interesting lesson.

Trouble with every sale - or bargain = the seller. Sorry to hear about it, but welcome to this site anyway!