Army Life And Marksmanship

Is Hess saying that a rifle bullet rises when it comes out of the barrel?
Well, it do... sort of.

The moment the bullet leave the barrel it loose height thanks to gravity.
Sometimes called "bulletdrop"

To counter this the barrel is aimed above the target. So the bullet will travel upwards at the start. Then level out and then start to loose height.
Just like if you thrown a football long distance... you throw it upwards.

So when shooting at say 300yards or more there will be an area in the middle where the bullet is flying above the height of a man.
This create a "safezone" and you have two danger areas. one from the muzzle and the first "150ish" yards and the 2nd area near the target. (But when shooting at 100yards this is obviously not a issue... with both smoothbores and rifles.)

A modern military rifle sighted at 300m, have a danger zone from 0 to 300m because of the much higher velocity.
So you really don't need to judge the distance., just aim low in the target and you will hit.

But with a rifle musket it do matter a lot if the target is at 300yards or 250yards. And the further the distance the more precis you need to be in your range estimation. And the dangerzone get smaller and smaller the longer distance.


So rang estimation is a critical skill when trying to do long range shooting with a rifle musket. And it is dam hard and require structured training to learn it well. Something that was simply not done during the civil war outside of a few select units.

The problem with Hess, is that the numbers he give for the safeszone and dangerzone are wrong and he exaggerate the issues.
And he basically claim that the rifle musket on a technical level was not able to do long range shooting in combat.

And that claim is wrong as the Britsh proved. But they spend a lot of resources on training each and every soldier to get this result.

But it require a lot of well structured training. And a good deal of live firing on a shooting range with feed back from trained instructoirs.
This is something that was not really done during the civil war. So he is right in claiming that very few civil war soldiers where able to take advantage of the weapon.

---
As always I will recommend the books by Brett Gibbons:
He both show how the rifle musket revolutionized warfare in the Crimean and India.. but did no such thing during the civil war.
 
Last edited:
You are repeating common myths...

The drill system used was written for units armed with rifle-muskets... in 1845 When rifle-muskets was first introduced.
By 1861 it was in no way a new weapon... despite what plenty of documentaries claim.

Knowing how to hit a rabbit with a smallbore rifle do not in any way teach you to judge distance precise (at 200+ yards) and to hit a enemy at that range with a military rifle.
Hess is exaggerating the issue of range estimation, but it is still a critical skill. And one that require structures training.. something that was not done outside of a few select units.

then add the issue that most soldiers was firing a gun where the sights where not correct for the cartridge used.
So basically if you did everything correctly, you would miss at 300 yards.

All springfields used the wrong cartridge. Lorenz had sights set in Austrians military steps. And where often uprifled to 58cal. and if not they used the wrong 54 cal burton bullet. Enfield used the wrong cartridge (same as the springfield), unless you where a csa soldier who got lucky and got imported English made cartridges.

Sure a good marksman would learn how to compensate for all this. But how do you learn to do that, if you never fire your gun outside of combat? You cant.

There is simply no evidence that the typical soldier, north or south, knew how to take advantage of his rifle and most soldiers would have been better off with smoothbore firing buck shot.
And this is the very reason why the NRA was created post war.


oh, And Fredericksburg would have been even worse if the csa soldiers had been armed with smoothbores firing buckshot. Since the federals took the firefight at close range. where the extra 3 bullets would have slaughtered the federals even faster.

----
" Didn't take much effort to point down a barrel and fire on slowly moving massed Infantry"
Have you ever tried shooting at a mansized target at 400yards... from a standing position with no support with open sights?
Even with a "modern" H&K G3 battlerifle it is dam hard. The target is very small. Sure having a infantry line makes it easier, but the target is still small in the height.
Also you need to be sure its at 400yards, and not 350 or 425.

And yes, at 100yards it pretty easy... but then you might as well use a smoothbore. It shoots just fine at 120-150 yards.
(at least the French M1822 smoothbore used by the Danish army from 1848-1860 had no issue hitting at that distance. as shown by period testing)
You can't be serious in thinking smoothbores even with the buckshot would of caused more casualties then rifled muskets. Rifled could kill or maim at 3 times the distance of smoothbores when fired in "mass". Plus Rifled would put more shots down range due to faster loading. Smoothbore beyond 120-150 yards as you say would be like getting slapped by a little girl "Ouch what was that" or punched by a drunken Sailor! Casualties at Fredericksburg started to occur way before 50 yards.
 
You can't be serious in thinking smoothbores even with the buckshot would of caused more casualties then rifled muskets. Rifled could kill or maim at 3 times the distance of smoothbores when fired in "mass". Plus Rifled would put more shots down range due to faster loading. Smoothbore beyond 120-150 yards as you say would be like getting slapped by a little girl "Ouch what was that" or punched by a drunken Sailor! Casualties at Fredericksburg started to occur way before 50 yards.
Rifle fire at 200+yards was on the whole ineffective during the civil war, because of poorly trained soldiers.
(and the terrain also made it impossible in many cases and as mentioned above almost all weapons was using cartridges that did not match their sights and in some cases the sights was not even in feet but different European measures)

At 125-200 yards it might have an effect, but the moment you get below 125 you might as well be using a smoothbore.

And when the combat range was less than 100 yards, then yes, a smoothbore that fire 4 bullets at the same time obviously inflict casualties much faster than a weapon only firing 1 bullet.

At Fredericksburg the federals got to about 40 yards.
And at a lot of other battles the attacker managed to get even closer.

Rifle muskets are only better weapons at 125+ yards and only in the hand of men who are well trained in marksmanship and know how to hit at 400+ yards.
The british managed to train all infantry in this.

Both sides during the civil war had problems just teaching the men to actually load and clean their guns.
And proper marksmanship training was almost never done outside of a few specific units.

Also a rifle musket is NOT faster to load than a percussion smoothbore. Where did you get this strange idea?

And it is especially not faster with with poor American cartridges that foul very quickly. And where you need to remove the bullet from the paper.
In comparison The bullet of a smoothbore was sufficiently undersized to not have the fouling issue to the same extent and you just loaded it with the paper.
 
Rifle fire at 200+yards was on the whole ineffective during the civil war, because of poorly trained soldiers.
(and the terrain also made it impossible in many cases and as mentioned above almost all weapons was using cartridges that did not match their sights and in some cases the sights was not even in feet but different European measures)

At 125-200 yards it might have an effect, but the moment you get below 125 you might as well be using a smoothbore.

And when the combat range was less than 100 yards, then yes, a smoothbore that fire 4 bullets at the same time obviously inflict casualties much faster than a weapon only firing 1 bullet.

At Fredericksburg the federals got to about 40 yards.
And at a lot of other battles the attacker managed to get even closer.

Rifle muskets are only better weapons at 125+ yards and only in the hand of men who are well trained in marksmanship and know how to hit at 400+ yards.
The british managed to train all infantry in this.

Both sides during the civil war had problems just teaching the men to actually load and clean their guns.
And proper marksmanship training was almost never done outside of a few specific units.

Also a rifle musket is NOT faster to load than a percussion smoothbore. Where did you get this strange idea?

And it is especially not faster with with poor American cartridges that foul very quickly. And where you need to remove the bullet from the paper.
In comparison The bullet of a smoothbore was sufficiently undersized to not have the fouling issue to the same extent and you just loaded it with the paper.
I was still comparing smoothbore as in flint to percussion rifle, got side tracked. Simply put "MASSED" as in thousands of muskets firing at "MASSED" slow marching Infantry, the Rifled will out do the smoothbore simply due to rifled starting to cause casualties at a greater distance. This is like beating a dead horse. Have a nice day I'm done.
 
I was still comparing smoothbore as in flint to percussion rifle, got side tracked. Simply put "MASSED" as in thousands of muskets firing at "MASSED" slow marching Infantry, the Rifled will out do the smoothbore simply due to rifled starting to cause casualties at a greater distance. This is like beating a dead horse. Have a nice day I'm done.
Actually let me end it like this. You have your smoothbore and I have my rifled. We are at "your" 150 yards from each other. We are both halfway decent shots or say average. Just like a CW Regiment, some trained better than others. So say our training is somewhere between great and lousy. So who do you think will fair better in that exchange? :smile coffee:
 
I am never endingly amazed at how little people on this site know about actually firing the weapons in use during the Civil War, the training standards supposedly in effect at the time, the actual training that took place [**** little], and the extremely limited capabilities of the soldiers. Mr. Aagaard is correct. For example:

The mythology of the Civil War asserts that Confederate troops were better shots their Federal opponents, but the available evidence does not necessarily support that conclusion. Responding to an order from LTG Hardee, MG Cleburne directed the testing of the .54 caliber Austrian rifle muskets being issued to the Army of Tennessee at 100, 150, 200, and 300 yards [91, 137, 182, and 274 meters] using two lots of ammunition; one manufactured in England and the other at the Atlanta Arsenal. Given the large percentage of Muster 1854, Type I, rifle muskets in MAJ Huse's purchases the Austrian rifles used in the tests were probably Type I weapons. On 19 June 1863 CPT Charles F. Vanderford, Cleburne' ordnance officer, reported on the resulting tests. He had been directed to use a company of average soldiers from the 6th​, 10th​, and 15th​ Texas Consolidated Infantry Regiment of Cleburne's Division. Although the troops had been in service for a year and a half Vanderford discovered during the 100-yard phase of his test that three quarters of them had never been instructed on how to load, aim, and fire military shoulder arms. Contrary to the legend of Texican marksmanship in the American west the troops' accuracy of fire was extremely poor. The weather conditions during the 100-yard test on 18 June had been perfect; cloudy, dry, and windless. Each of the 20 men involved in the 100-yard test fired one shot using Atlanta Arsenal ammunition at a 10-foot high by six-foot wide target, achieving an aggregate 13 hits. None of the rounds hit the black painted six-inch [15.2 cm] bullseye at the center of the target. Prior to continuing testing Vanderford had to instruct the men in basic marksmanship.

After instructing the soldiers on how to load and take aim Vanderford continued his test with five selected soldiers. The weather conditions remained the same; cloudy, dry, and windless. Firing 20 rounds of English manufactured ammunition one the same target at 150 yards, the troops achieved 18 hits. All the hits were in a group considerably tighter than the hits from the Atlanta Arsenal ammunition used at 100 yards. It is not clear from the report if the improvement was due to the use of English ammunition or the marksmanship instruction given the selected troops.

Vanderford continued the tests on 19 June. At 200 yards he selected 10 soldiers of "average ability as marksmen." Firing 10 rounds of Atlanta Arsenal ammunition and 13 rounds of English ammunition they achieved 14 hits on the same target. Continuing with the 10 selected men at 300 yards they fired 27 rounds of Atlanta Arsenal ammunition and 16 rounds of English ammunition, achieving 12 hits on the same target. The weather conditions remained excellent, sunny with white clouds, dry, and with a light breeze from the front.

Vanderford clearly did not have a good understanding of the scientific method. Since the troops fired a mix of Atlanta Arsenal and English ammunition at 200 and 300 yards it is impossible to determine how well each of the lots of ammunition performed, although Vanderford observed that the "English cartridge gave much better results than the Atlanta [Arsenal cartridges]. The data obtained today and yesterday was, however, insufficient for any accurate comparison between the two." Nor did Vanderford have a good understanding of the sights on the Austrian rifles, noting that "In firing at 300 yards distance, it appears that neither the Atlanta nor the English cartridge gave proper results, the guns being sighted directly upon the center of the target. Three fourths of the 'misses' fall too low, nearly one half striking the butts below the lower line of the target. This is perhaps attributable principally to the considerable windage of the guns, the balls being too small for target practice. This by no means a fault, however, the difficulty being (usually) to load [the] guns after the 12th​ or 15th​ round."

Given the calibration of the Austrian rifle sights in Schritt and the arched trajectory of the bullets, Vanderford achieved at 300 yards exactly the result one would expect from troops and an officer who did not understand the battle sights on their Austrian rifles. Absent an understanding of the sights of the weapon Vanderford's conclusion that the low shots were based upon a loss of velocity from there being too much windage between the cartridge and the bore of the rifle was not unreasonable. The possibility also exists that Vanderford did not understand that the bullets from the English cartridges were supposed to be loaded in the greased cartridge wrappers and that he instructed his test troops to remove the wrappers. Since the Texans' weapons were fouling by the 12th​ to 15th​ round there is also reason to question the soldiers' maintenance of their weapons. Vanderford or his superiors passed his report up the chain of command, because COL Mallet acknowledged receipt of a copy of the test results from BG Gorgas on 3 August 1863.

Given the demonstrated incompetence of Vanderford's Texicans - soldiers that had never been trained to shoot their weapons and an division ordnance officer who didn't understand the sights on his mens' weapons - I would have been delighted to have my regiment take them on at 100 yards with buck and ball. But, my people would have been trained in how to use their rifle muskets.

Much of the powder in the south was made by the Gaines Brothers. It was judged as a superior quality.

Who pray tell were the Gaines Brothers?

Regards,
Don Dixon
 
I recall reading that at least one U.S. volunteer regiment showed up on the firing line that asked neighboring regiments for somone to show their men how to load their weapons. Later, some regiments had a policy that when a man came off guard duty, they were to discharge their weapon at a target as a form of target practice. Still things were so bad that in 1871 veterans, including former Generals, met in New York City to establish the National Rifle Association of the United States. From then on, the U.S. Army emphasized marksmanship, including the wearing of badges and a boost in pay for good shots. By the time of WW1, the Germans were aware of the excellent marksmanship of U.S. Army infantry.
 
I am never endingly amazed at how little people on this site know about actually firing the weapons in use during the Civil War, the training standards supposedly in effect at the time, the actual training that took place [**** little], and the extremely limited capabilities of the soldiers. Mr. Aagaard is correct. For example:

The mythology of the Civil War asserts that Confederate troops were better shots their Federal opponents, but the available evidence does not necessarily support that conclusion. Responding to an order from LTG Hardee, MG Cleburne directed the testing of the .54 caliber Austrian rifle muskets being issued to the Army of Tennessee at 100, 150, 200, and 300 yards [91, 137, 182, and 274 meters] using two lots of ammunition; one manufactured in England and the other at the Atlanta Arsenal. Given the large percentage of Muster 1854, Type I, rifle muskets in MAJ Huse's purchases the Austrian rifles used in the tests were probably Type I weapons. On 19 June 1863 CPT Charles F. Vanderford, Cleburne' ordnance officer, reported on the resulting tests. He had been directed to use a company of average soldiers from the 6th​, 10th​, and 15th​ Texas Consolidated Infantry Regiment of Cleburne's Division. Although the troops had been in service for a year and a half Vanderford discovered during the 100-yard phase of his test that three quarters of them had never been instructed on how to load, aim, and fire military shoulder arms. Contrary to the legend of Texican marksmanship in the American west the troops' accuracy of fire was extremely poor. The weather conditions during the 100-yard test on 18 June had been perfect; cloudy, dry, and windless. Each of the 20 men involved in the 100-yard test fired one shot using Atlanta Arsenal ammunition at a 10-foot high by six-foot wide target, achieving an aggregate 13 hits. None of the rounds hit the black painted six-inch [15.2 cm] bullseye at the center of the target. Prior to continuing testing Vanderford had to instruct the men in basic marksmanship.

After instructing the soldiers on how to load and take aim Vanderford continued his test with five selected soldiers. The weather conditions remained the same; cloudy, dry, and windless. Firing 20 rounds of English manufactured ammunition one the same target at 150 yards, the troops achieved 18 hits. All the hits were in a group considerably tighter than the hits from the Atlanta Arsenal ammunition used at 100 yards. It is not clear from the report if the improvement was due to the use of English ammunition or the marksmanship instruction given the selected troops.

Vanderford continued the tests on 19 June. At 200 yards he selected 10 soldiers of "average ability as marksmen." Firing 10 rounds of Atlanta Arsenal ammunition and 13 rounds of English ammunition they achieved 14 hits on the same target. Continuing with the 10 selected men at 300 yards they fired 27 rounds of Atlanta Arsenal ammunition and 16 rounds of English ammunition, achieving 12 hits on the same target. The weather conditions remained excellent, sunny with white clouds, dry, and with a light breeze from the front.

Vanderford clearly did not have a good understanding of the scientific method. Since the troops fired a mix of Atlanta Arsenal and English ammunition at 200 and 300 yards it is impossible to determine how well each of the lots of ammunition performed, although Vanderford observed that the "English cartridge gave much better results than the Atlanta [Arsenal cartridges]. The data obtained today and yesterday was, however, insufficient for any accurate comparison between the two." Nor did Vanderford have a good understanding of the sights on the Austrian rifles, noting that "In firing at 300 yards distance, it appears that neither the Atlanta nor the English cartridge gave proper results, the guns being sighted directly upon the center of the target. Three fourths of the 'misses' fall too low, nearly one half striking the butts below the lower line of the target. This is perhaps attributable principally to the considerable windage of the guns, the balls being too small for target practice. This by no means a fault, however, the difficulty being (usually) to load [the] guns after the 12th​ or 15th​ round."

Given the calibration of the Austrian rifle sights in Schritt and the arched trajectory of the bullets, Vanderford achieved at 300 yards exactly the result one would expect from troops and an officer who did not understand the battle sights on their Austrian rifles. Absent an understanding of the sights of the weapon Vanderford's conclusion that the low shots were based upon a loss of velocity from there being too much windage between the cartridge and the bore of the rifle was not unreasonable. The possibility also exists that Vanderford did not understand that the bullets from the English cartridges were supposed to be loaded in the greased cartridge wrappers and that he instructed his test troops to remove the wrappers. Since the Texans' weapons were fouling by the 12th​ to 15th​ round there is also reason to question the soldiers' maintenance of their weapons. Vanderford or his superiors passed his report up the chain of command, because COL Mallet acknowledged receipt of a copy of the test results from BG Gorgas on 3 August 1863.

Given the demonstrated incompetence of Vanderford's Texicans - soldiers that had never been trained to shoot their weapons and an division ordnance officer who didn't understand the sights on his mens' weapons - I would have been delighted to have my regiment take them on at 100 yards with buck and ball. But, my people would have been trained in how to use their rifle muskets.



Who pray tell were the Gaines Brothers?

Regards,
Don Dixon
It has been awhile since I read of them, but they were two brothers who manufactured black powder in Georgia iirc. From what else I have read it was of very good quality.
 
You can't be serious in thinking smoothbores even with the buckshot would of caused more casualties then rifled muskets. Rifled could kill or maim at 3 times the distance of smoothbores when fired in "mass". Plus Rifled would put more shots down range due to faster loading. Smoothbore beyond 120-150 yards as you say would be like getting slapped by a little girl "Ouch what was that" or punched by a drunken Sailor! Casualties at Fredericksburg started to occur way before 50 yards.
In 1709 at Malplaquet, both sides were armed with flintlock muskets, all smooth-bores, muzzle-loading artillery, cavalry, etc. Killed and wounded from all causes was on the order of 30,000+. Over the course of three days in October 1814 at the Battle of Nations in Leipzig, the French, German allies, and Italian allies sustained 38,000 killed and wounded, again, with almost all smooth-bore flintlock weapons, artillery, etc. Some rifles were in use by skirmishers and light infantry, but of course these were still flintlocks and used a patched round ball and were thus quite slow to load. Not like a Minie/Burton ball at all.

The point is that lots of pre-rifle wars in which smooth-bore flintlocks were the "Queen of the Battlefield" were very, very bloody affairs.

A smoothbore musket ball remains very dangerous, and even lethal, long past its practical range. So while a deliberately aimed shot would miss at distance, the sheer weight of musket balls being delivered would remain deadly or capable of inflicting wounds at hundreds of yards.
 
At First Bull Run, the 14th Brooklyn made a charge up Henry House Hill and when the Rebels leveled their guns, the command "Down!" was given and the men fell flat. the Rebel volley went over the 14th and into the battalion of Marines behind them causing the Marines to break and run. Not a single 14th man was hit in that volley.
 
And btw infantry is as cheap as they come. Elevated peasants. Queen of nothing.
Not when you decide to train every single infantryman in marksmanship. Then he actually cost a lot of money. both to train and to maintain
.
But if that make it possible for one soldier to do the same job as 2 or 3 badly trained men. It is in the long run cheaper. especially if you need to move him around the globe by ship.
 
An American officer, George Lamb Willard, wrote a "paper" prior to the civil war, advocating the use of smooth bore muskets firing buck and ball ammunition for the U.S. Infantry regiments. He also advocated the use of rifle muskets for one company out of the ten who would be designated as skirmishers. This seems to agree in many ways with what some of you are saying about the actual battlefield effectiveness of Civil War shooting.

I wonder if any of you have read this "paper", or even heard of it, and if so what your opinions of it may be.

I also wonder if any of you guys have an opinion on the difference, if any, between the accuracy of soldiers engaged in target shooting and those engaged in actual combat with the enemy.

John
 
Not when you decide to train every single infantryman in marksmanship. Then he actually cost a lot of money. both to train and to maintain
.
But if that make it possible for one soldier to do the same job as 2 or 3 badly trained men. It is in the long run cheaper. especially if you need to move him around the globe by ship.
One grunt does not equal one artillery piece. Or tank. Or etc. Ship that around the globe.
 
I know I have read it some where, but how many rounds were fired for each man hit?
 

Learn About Us
About CivilWarTalk
Contact the Webmaster
Meet the Staff
Link to CivilWarTalk
Join Our Community
Register
Browse Forums
View Today's Discussions
Search the Forum
Get Help
FAQ
Student Guide
Forum Rules & Etiquette
Copyright / DMCA

     Contact Us CivilwarTalk on Facebook CivilWarTalk on YouTube CivilWarTalk on Twitter RSS Feed

Bringing the American Civil War and More to Life.
© 1999 - , CIVILWARTALK, LLC - Site Version 10.0

SlaveryTalk.com - SecessionTalk.com - CivilWarTalk.com - ReconstructionTalk.com
Back
Top