Armored Train Car

[Mike Serpa]

So the image is something that really happened? Not some artist's flight of fantasy?

View attachment 178775


'Savage Station, June 1862. Pushed by standard RR engine. Ordered to be advanced from Richmond by Maj Gen MacGruder. Fired from a railroad cut that opened on the Federal lines. Federals forced back to new position at an angle to the rail line. Could have broken the Federals if the gun could have been turned.'

Period image of the Rail car. Sketch by Private Robert Sneden, USA

http://www.firstmdus.net/Rail cars.htm

Was it really worth getting one cannon into battle vs. the possible loss of a locomotive?

Not that it wouldn't have been extremely frightening to see this thing headed toward you...

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

Railroad gun and crew Petersburg, VA - LOC #01368

 

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

View attachment 178189

http://firstmdus.net/Rail cars_files/rail monitor63.jpg

The above photo states that it might be the only one of its kind. I've seen drawings of Civil War armored cars but not any pics. Anyone know of any others?

Also, what the heck is a Pennsylvania Rail Road car doing this far south?

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

Is that an "armored" rail car or an "armed" rail car? Is there any evidence that the sides are reinforced to withstand bombardment?

 

[gary]

Great thread. Thanks to all.

 

[USS ALASKA]

Is that an "armored" rail car or an "armed" rail car?

The references I'm reading state 'armored' - maybe not to cannon fire but at least rifle fire perhaps.

http://www.firstmdus.net/Rail cars.htm

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[USS ALASKA]

This was just a flat car carrying a naval gun protected by sloping wood, covered with iron. Only the front was protected and it had to be pushed by an unprotected locomotive.

'(Plan drawings from Edwin Alexander book)

Proposed by Gen Robert E. Lee to Col J. Gorgas, Chief of Ordnance, CSA, June 5, 1862.

"Is there a possibility of constructing an iron plated battery mounting a heavy gun on trucks, the whole covered with iron to move along the York River railroad? Please see what can be done…"

Completed: June 14, 1862

Designer: Lieut. John M. Brooks, CSN

Armament: 32 pound 57 CWT

Weight of car: 60 tons

Supervisor of Construction: Lt. James Barry, CSN

Commander: Lieut R.D. Minor

Crew: Norfolk United Artillery battery (previously of the CSS Virginia) Lt James Barry, Sgt Daniel Knowles and 13 men'

http://www.firstmdus.net/Rail cars.htm

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[rebelatsea]

The article says the were firing shell.

I noticed that Dave, If the casualty figures from that eyewitness is anything lake accurate, I reckon the gun was firing naval canister shot, and got the range exactly right, the effect of the contents of the canister shot weighing just about 1.5lb each if they struck the ground at an oblique angle would be to throw rocks and stone up in addition to the projectiles. nasty !

 

[Mr. King]

I would have put a couple gatling guns in there. Or maybe even a couple breechloading whitworth guns.

 

[Saphroneth]

I would have put a couple gatling guns in there.

Good luck getting any, they weren't common.

Or maybe even a couple breechloading whitworth guns.

I understand that in actual American used they tended to be loaded from the muzzle - early breech actions were oft temperamental.
They were also even rarer than Gatlings.

 

[rebelatsea]

Good luck getting any, they weren't common.


I understand that in actual American used they tended to be loaded from the muzzle - early breech actions were oft temperamental.
They were also even rarer than Gatlings.

The lighter Armstrongs worked well but the breech mechanism and the bore had to be kept scrupulously clean, not always easy to achieve on a battlefield.

 

[Saphroneth]

The lighter Armstrongs worked well but the breech mechanism and the bore had to be kept scrupulously clean, not always easy to achieve on a battlefield.

They actually didn't, not the lighter ones at least. The vent piece had a tendency to blow, but that's a safety feature and each gun had two spares.


"As regards the care of the gun I find no difficulty in keeping it in perfect order in all weathers and all circumstances" (Major Govan, RA)
"On one occasion his guns had very rough work indeed. They were sent out with a division of the army over a swamp, the very worst ground possible for artillery. The guns were in fact almost swallowed up, and were covered with mud when brought into action, but no impediment occurred." (Major Govan, RA)
"On two occasions vent-pieces were blown away; on the last occasion I happened to come up to the gun almost immediately after it had occurred... The traversing screw was jammed, but the gun was not otherwise injured, and with another vent-piece was again serviceable." (Major Hay, RA)
"As a preliminary measure, a new 12-pounder gun, No. 8, was left exposed to the weather without any protection, and untouched, ... [for] 45 days. It rained very constantly during this period... At the expiration of it, it was taken to the marshes, and fired without being cleaned or sponged." (Report from the Select Committee on Ordnance, 23 July 1863)

 

[lordroel]

Looks like the CSS Virginia on tracks.

 

[Saphroneth]

Looks like the CSS Virginia on tracks.

With good reason, it's a good basic shape for an armoured citadel, though a minor slant like that isn't as useful as the kind of big slant on the actual Virginia.

 

[USS ALASKA]

Looks like the CSS Virginia on tracks.

The above Confederate car in post #25 was referred to by the Richmond newspapers as the 'Dry Land Merrimac'

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[lordroel]

With good reason, it's a good basic shape for an armoured citadel, though a minor slant like that isn't as useful as the kind of big slant on the actual Virginia.

Does shooting the cannons inside not effect the stability of the armored car, asking as a noob as i am.

 

[Saphroneth]

Does shooting the cannons inside not effect the stability of the armored car, asking as a noob as i am.

Not small ones - those look like small field pieces and the gauge is quite wide. In fact, to fit that way on standard rail gauge (which is to say, less than six feet) those guns are probably 6-pounder field guns - even a Napoleon 12-pounder is 66 inches long.
Of course, it is a sketch, which means it could be just not accurate!

 

[USS ALASKA]

LEE'S "DRY LAND MERRIMAC"-, SAVAGE'S STATION, VIRGINIA, JUNE 1862

'An artist's impression of the Confederate heavy battery that went into action on June 29,1862 at Savage's Station on the Virginia Peninsula, commanded by Lt James E. Barry. Built by the same yard and to similar specifications as the superstructure of a Confederate ironclad ship, it featured an 18in wooden casemate and an iron skin and apron. The open top and back provided ventilation as well as a quick escape route for the crew. Since Lee expected it to combat heavy Union guns also mounted on railroad cars, it may have had as much armor plating as its naval namesake: a 2in inner layer of 6in-wide rolled iron strips fixed horizontally, and a 2in outer layer secured vertically. When the CS Navy delivered the railroad battery, with its rifled and banded 32-pdr, they also provided 200 rounds of ammunition including 15in solid bolt shot. According to one account, the Land Merrimac weighed around 60 tons, making it nearly three times heavier than the locomotive propelling it (while the engine lacked armor, it did have a protective layer of cotton bales fixed to the cab.) After Savage's Station, Union prisoners were shocked by the moving gun and asked their captors how they transported it, to which the Confederates jokingly replied, "by forty horses." The Land Merrimac held up well against small arms and field artillery, but the roadbed, locomotive and tender were another matter.

The highly versatile United Artillery of Norfolk, then stationed at Fort Norfolk, were trained as light artillery, heavy artillery, and infantry, and while they fought in all those capacities they also served on board Confederate ships. When the Navy was about to launch the CSS Virginia into action they lacked the sailors to man all her guns, so they called for volunteers. The United Artillery flatly refused to serve under naval officers, and the Navy Department didn't care which officers they served under so long as they served. The company then volunteered to a man, but only 31 were selected along with their own officers. Now Lt James E. Barry, Sgt Daniel Knowles, and 13 men would comprise the crew of the land version, while N. S. Walker, a York River Railroad engineer, volunteered to drive them into battle. On June 24, 1862 the battery was officially handed over to the Army; however, on its "maiden voyage" one of the timbers under the heavy 32-pdr gun broke, and it was June 28 before the Confederacy's latest oddity chugged down the tracks again from Richmond, on its way to its historic debut at the battle of Savage's Station.

On June 29 heavy fighting once again broke out on the Peninsula as McClellan pulled his army back toward the James River; Lee pressed forward, ordering MajGen John B. Magruder's division to spearhead the assault along the Nine Mile road. With steam up, Lt Barry sat within the Confederate lines about 6 miles from Richmond awaiting orders, and at around 10am Magruder sent him forward. After a mile the battery had to stop for some time to clear away heavy obstructions left on the tracks by the retreating Federals. When it had pushed forward to a point near the clearing by Savage's house the rail battery stopped for the engineer to speak with BrigGen Richard Griffith; suddenly, a Union shell burst next to the armored car and mortally wounded the Mississippi brigadier. The "Land Merrimac" immediately rumbled forward and, with its much larger shells, silenced the

June 29,1862: the battle of Savage's Station. The explosions and fires show where the Federals are destroying their own ammunition trains. Down the tracks to the left, about halfway between the explosion and the edge, another puff of smoke may be the artist's attempt to indicate the location of Gen Lee's "Dry Land Merrimac." At the right are Federal hospital tents. (LC)

Union battery before firing on the woods nearby. Later that afternoon the rail battery was sent forward with Confederate skirmishers, and fired into several Union positions including a train. The Federals were forming a line of battle in Savage's field, and Magruder ordered Barry to move a quarter-mile closer and fire on them. After a couple of rounds the Union infantry . \ scattered into the woods and i regrouped. More infantry poured into the woods in support, and a battery of Federal Parrot guns opened up on the "Land Merrimac." With the locomotive completely exposed, Barry had to pull back under an absolute hail of fire, but under their thick armor the gun car crew were completely unscathed. Although this experimental weapon had its share of detractors it did prove rather effective. According to a Union signal officer, "the range and service of the piece were splendid, and its fire was most annoying." A Union prisoner who was captured that day estimated that the iron monster killed or wounded 100 men and 30 horses.'

http://www.minecreek.info/railroad-tactics/heavy-batteries.html

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[USS ALASKA]

Does shooting the cannons inside not effect the stability of the armored car

The recoil should be taken up in part by the gun carriage, but I'm sure the wagon would have moved against it's screw brake even so

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/petersburg-va-railroad-gun-and-crew.102686/

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[Saphroneth]

Hmm, 60 tons...

Well, the 32 pounder is about three tons, and I'm not sure how much a basic flat car weighs, but let's call it just another three.
Battery nature...

it featured an 18in wooden casemate and an iron skin and apron. The open top and back provided ventilation as well as a quick escape route for the crew. Since Lee expected it to combat heavy Union guns also mounted on railroad cars, it may have had as much armor plating as its naval namesake: a 2in inner layer of 6in-wide rolled iron strips fixed horizontally, and a 2in outer layer secured vertically.

Okay, so a given square foot area of 18" thick wood is 60-90 lbs, and a given square foot area of 4" of iron is about 160 llbs. So each square foot of protected surface area is about 220 lbs or so, which means about ten square feet per ton.

That means there's about the weight budget for 500 square feet of protected area. If we assume this has a 28' length and a 5' width, that's about 60 linear feet of protected area... which comes out at about eight feet of vertical height. So it's certainly plausible it was that well protected.

 

[Mr. King]

Good luck getting any, they weren't common.


I understand that in actual American used they tended to be loaded from the muzzle - early breech actions were oft temperamental.
They were also even rarer than Gatlings.

Armored trains were pretty rare too. LOL

 

[USS ALASKA]

Is that an "armored" rail car or an "armed" rail car? Is there any evidence that the sides are reinforced to withstand bombardment?

So sir, given the above analysis by @Saphroneth , at least some of these cars could take a pounding...

Cheers,
USS ALASKA