AOT Question

[johan_steele]

By the time of Franklin a strong CS Regt of the AoT numbered 300 men, often consolidated from a couple of different Regt. After the disasters at Franklin & Nashville between wounded, killed and desertion the AoT was at best an empty shell. I've always been impressed w/ units like the Missouri Brigade that took a pounding at Allatoona and a month later stood to the line for Franklin. Hood ripped the guts out of his army at Franklin and then proceeded onto Nashville to lay seige to an Army twice his strength; the only advantage he had at Nashville was a cadre of tough veterans with a goodly number culled from the "cradle & grave" against largely green troops... then AJ Smith arrived w/ his Division of hardened veterans to tip the balance. At that point it was all over but the shouting and a touch of particularly sharp fighting.

I've often wondered why Hood's Army fared so poorly in front of Nashville but in the most brutal terms Hood was outgeneraled by Thomas. I think he was hoping for another Fredricksburg w/ Thomas bashing himself against his lines. But he was no Lee and Thomas was no Burnside.

 

[njwilliams]

I've often wondered why Hood's Army fared so poorly in front of Nashville but in the most brutal terms Hood was outgeneraled by Thomas. I think he was hoping for another Fredricksburg w/ Thomas bashing himself against his lines. But he was no Lee and Thomas was no Burnside.

I think you made an interesting point here, I have always believed that Hood was a good brigade and division commander but he was not Crops commander material and definitely should never have been given command of the AoT. It always seemed like later in the war so of the generals were put in commands that didn't really suit them. I think AP Hill should have been left in command of the Light Division and Lafayette McLaws should have been given command of the third corps in the ANV. Dick Ewell's corps should have not been given command of a corps instead JEB Stuart should have been given command of Jackson Corps. I always had a feeling it was because of the whole Virginia thing that Hill was placed in command of the new Third Corps and not McLaws.

Another thing I'd like to add dealing with the western theater Pat Cleburne should have been given a corps to command in the AoT instead of Hood during the Atlanta Campaign.

It always seemed like when an an overly aggressive confederate division commander was put charge of a corps or army(in Hood's case) they would always attack first, then think about their strategy for the battle later. I would have argued that had Longstreet been put in charge of the AoT Franklin and Nashville would never have changed and Sherman may have ended up have a couple of Cold Harbors outside of Atlanta (I know I'm playing the what if game, it's just a thought). People may say that "but Longstreet got beat by Burnside at Knoxville" while from stuff that happened at Knoxville I would say that it is not all Longstreet's fault what happened there a lot of blame could be placed at the feet of surprise surprise Braxton Bragg, bet you guys didn't see that one coming.:laugh1:

 

[ghostchaser]

I always found it sad how the AoT went from a large fighting machine like the one that won at Chickamauga with a little help from the two divisions of Longstreet's corps. I think the AoT would have fared but under the command of a competent general, Joe Johnston was good. But Bragg and Hood should get a lot of the blame for it's failures and destruction, but I feel most of the blame should lie squarely on the shoulders of Jeff Davis, for putting those two in charge and keeping in the case of Bragg him in place, because they were friends and all.

I agree. The fighting men deserved better.

 

[rhp6033]

Reading a history of but one regiment in the AoT, it seems that after Nashville the AoT was evaluated and determined that only about half of the survivors were in any condition to be effective in combat. Many of those who were disabled by injury or disease were sent to hospitals or, more likely, sent home to be cared for by their families. From the history of the 31st Alabama:

"General Hood requested to be relieved of his command on the 13th, and two days later General Beauregard arrived at Tupelo with directions from Richmond to grant Hood's request. Beaureqard saw the dismal condition of the once mighty army and decided that the only thing to do was to break the organization up and dispatch its usable parts to other remaining forces throughout the dying Confederacy. The battle worn brigades of Ector, Gibson, Holtzclaw, Cockrell and Sears were sent to reinforce the forces under General Dabney Maury, which were holding the city of Mobile against a determined Union siege. Most of what remained, the brigades of Adams, Cantey, Featherston, Gist, Govan, Jackson, Smith, Sharp, Palmer and Pettus, were formed into a mini‑army under the command of Alexander P. Stewart and prepared to make the journey to the Carolinas.

Stewart had only 4,500 men in his new command but tried to keep the old Army of Tennessee command structure intact. All three corps continued to carry their old names although the remains of Cheatham's Corps was placed under General William Bate. Stewart turned his corps over to General Loring and General Daniel H. Hill was brought in to lead Lee's Corps.

There were also a number of changes that needed to be made on the brigade and regimental level. So many of the regiments in the army were reduced to a point as to be useless as independent commands. Many units that had once numbered 1,000 men could now muster only a couple of dozen. On January 19th, the 31st Alabama mustered only 132 effective troops under the leadership of Major George Washington Mattieson. In order to streamline the command structure, undermanned regiments were combined with each other to make more effectively sized units. This was to be the fate of the 31st."

 

[ghostchaser]

Thank you, rhp, for that information.

 

[rhp6033]

Looking again at that information, I noticed that Stewert took 10 brigades of about 4,500 men and officers with him to join Johnston's Army of the South. In other words, a brigade averaged about 450 officers and men - less than half the initial mustering manpower of the average infantry regiment. The three "corps commanders" had commands no larger than the initial manpower of a regiment.

The 31st Alabama was combined with the 23rd Alabama, and at that point lost it's identity. But the 23rd Alabama mustered about 78 officers and men when it surrendered with Johnston's army in N. Carolina, of which probably less than half had belonged to the old 31st Alabama. The author of the regimental history I quoted above said that it's original muster was about 1,000 officers and men, and some 500 enlisted men were added to the regiment at various stages through enlistment or draft. It just goes to show how little effective manpower was left to the Confederacy in the final months of the war.

 

[prroh]

I understand the AoT dribbled into NC so that only about 3,000 were at Bentonville and over 4,000 surrendered. Wonder how many former ANV members wound up at Durham? Were they parole violators, technically a hanging offense.

 

[njwilliams]

I understand the AoT dribbled into NC so that only about 3,000 were at Bentonville and over 4,000 surrendered. Wonder how many former ANV members wound up at Durham? Were they parole violators, technically a hanging offense.

That would be an interesting question to be answered, I wonder through if that matter soldiers in the ANV would head south after that had finished fighting AoP in '64 with all those bloody battles of the overland campaign and the battle in and around Petersburg. I would have though most of them would be sick of battle and war and ready to go home after fighting away from their home and families for however many years.

 

[prroh]

That would be an interesting question to be answered, I wonder through if that matter soldiers in the ANV would head south after that had finished fighting AoP in '64 with all those bloody battles of the overland campaign and the battle in and around Petersburg. I would have though most of them would be sick of battle and war and ready to go home after fighting away from their home and families for however many years.

Like Black Confederates, the ANV soldiers who went to NC after Appomattox as bitter-enders, is another Lost Cause myth. If any ANV guys showed up, how can you tell if they were among the thousands of ANV deserters looking for a train pass and rations?

 

[njwilliams]

Like Black Confederates, the ANV soldiers who went to NC after Appomattox as bitter-enders, is another Lost Cause myth. If any ANV guys showed up, how can you tell if they were among the thousands of ANV deserters looking for a train pass and rations?

I wasn't there so I can't say whether or not a couple of soldiers of ANV were there, there were some elements that had served with the ANV with Johnston when we surrendered to Sherman. I know that the cavalry and artillery portions of Hampton's Legion surrendered at Bennett Palace along with Wade Hampton, while the infantry portion of the legion surrendered with Lee. (I'm not arguing that soldiers from the infantry portion of the legion went to fight again in the Carolinas) Just that elements that had been part of the ANV at one time or another did fight in the Carolinas, just as soldier who had been in the 11th and 12th corps of the AoP were there in Sherman's Army.

The Confederate army that fought at the end in the Carolinas seemed to be thrown together with what ever the confederates could find. So there would probably be men who fought in one or more of the Armies of the Confederacy at those battles. I know you have what was left of the AoT, elements of ANV, probably a couple of Army of Mississippi soldiers all coming together to strengthen Johnston's Army.

Black Confederates did exist, I'm not saying they were a common element in the confederate armies but they did exist. It is known that they existed so they are not a myth. It's like the Native Americans who fought on either side, they existed but that are not talked about much, but it still doesn't mean that they didn't exist.

I agree that even if soldiers from the ANV who surrendered with Lee, fought again in the Carolinas it would be hard to tell as they would not admit that they had broken their paroles. It is a question that will in likely hood never be answered. There may or may not have been a soldier that surrendered with Lee that fought again in the Carolinas, but I can't prove one way or the other.

 

[prroh]

I wasn't there so I can't say whether or not a couple of soldiers of ANV were there, there were some elements that had served with the ANV with Johnston when we surrendered to Sherman. I know that the cavalry and artillery portions of Hampton's Legion surrendered at Bennett Palace along with Wade Hampton,

Very true but my question was about tales of Rebels who supposedly refused parole at Appomattox and made their way to NC. Hampton was sent to SC months before due to public outcry about lack of troops facing Sherman as he marched through the Carolinas.

Black Confederates did exist, I'm not saying they were a common element in the confederate armies but they did exist. It is known that they existed so they are not a myth. It's like the Native Americans who fought on either side, they existed but that are not talked about much, but it still doesn't mean that they didn't exist.

This is an often discussed topic and your very positive assertion that Black Confederates are known to have existed is, to say the least intriguing. Could you supply backup on the assertion as this could clear up the popular misconception? There is ample documentation about native Americans serving in the war. Just because it is a little discussed fact, in no way does it deny their service.

I agree that even if soldiers from the ANV who surrendered with Lee, fought again in the Carolinas it would be hard to tell as they would not admit that they had broken their paroles. It is a question that will in likely hood never be answered. There may or may not have been a soldier that surrendered with Lee that fought again in the Carolinas, but I can't prove one way or the other.

No doubt the Army of the South was a collection of bits and pieces. Must have been a command nightmare for Johnston with so many chiefs and so few Indians. I have never seen any documentation as to whether any ANV soldiers left Appomattox to NC and if so, how may were there? Two, a hundred?

 

[njwilliams]

This is an often discussed topic and your very positive assertion that Black Confederates are known to have existed is, to say the least intriguing. Could you supply backup on the assertion as this could clear up the popular misconception? There is ample documentation about native Americans serving in the war. Just because it is a little discussed fact, in no way does it deny their service.

Here are two sites that give examples.
http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm#Noted%20Examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...in_the_U.S._Civil_War#Confederate_States_Army

Again I'm not saying that there were large numbers of black confederates, but that a few did exist. To not talk of them would I feel belittle them and what they did. I can respect any person that is willing to fight so something they believe in, "right or wrong".

No doubt the Army of the South was a collection of bits and pieces. Must have been a command nightmare for Johnston with so many chiefs and so few Indians. I have never seen any documentation as to whether any ANV soldiers left Appomattox to NC and if so, how may were there? Two, a hundred?

Neither have I seen documentation, but the possibility does exist. For lack of a better analogy it might be like the question "is there anyone else out their in the universe?" and the best answer that could be given is a resounding "maybe". I know it's fence sitting but it seems to be the only option to me in this case.

I don't believe in the "lost cause" the problem is that when they came up with it they mixed a lot of BS with some truth so it becomes harder to separate out the what was true versus what is total garbage. We also need to remember that Jubal Early was a lawyer so he would have excelled at mixing fact and fiction together to confuses people as to what was true and what was not.

 

[prroh]

I can't believe that the totally debunked information about black Confederates. I will not belabor this but will clearly state that 65,000 Blacks DID NOT serve in the Confederate Army , nor did Black units serve under Jackson, as your "sources " claim. Please refer to this board's archives to see ample documentation which discredit your "proof".

 

[njwilliams]

I can't believe that the totally debunked information about black Confederates. I will not belabor this but will clearly state that 65,000 Blacks DID NOT serve in the Confederate Army , nor did Black units serve under Jackson, as your "sources " claim. Please refer to this board's archives to see ample documentation which discredit your "proof".

Okay, new stuff is found everyday and history seems to change with the times. So twenty years from now who knows what history will say. Foucault makes some very good points in "Society Must Be Defended". Everyday something new comes out to prove or disprove some school of thought. I'm not going to continue on the discussion of black confederates as I know how it will end, with us agreeing to disagree.

 

[Nathanb1]

Okay, new stuff is found everyday and history seems to change with the times. So twenty years from now who knows what history will say. Foucault makes some very good points in "Society Must Be Defended". Everyday something new comes out to prove or disprove some school of thought. I'm not going to continue on the discussion of black confederates as I know how it will end, with us agreeing to disagree.

But do us the favor of looking up those past posts. If our dear late Larry Cockerham couldn't find 'em, I'm not going to hold my breath till someone else does. The Jackson thing is......pretty laughable.