Another question about brevet ranks

Stryker65

Captain
Joined
Jun 5, 2023
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William & Mary
Did brevet ranks have to be "activated" in order to apply? I've seen multiple instances now of brevet-brigadiers serving under ordinary colonels and brevet-MGs serving under ordinary BGs -- when coupled with the General Orders I've seen of "BG ___ is assigned to duty according to his brevet rank", does this mean that the brevet rank didn't apply until an order "activated" the brevet? It would explain how a lieutenant colonel brevetted BG could still serve under an ordinary colonel without a brevet.
 
Did brevet ranks have to be "activated" in order to apply? I've seen multiple instances now of brevet-brigadiers serving under ordinary colonels and brevet-MGs serving under ordinary BGs -- when coupled with the General Orders I've seen of "BG ___ is assigned to duty according to his brevet rank", does this mean that the brevet rank didn't apply until an order "activated" the brevet? It would explain how a lieutenant colonel brevetted BG could still serve under an ordinary colonel without a brevet.
I always defer to George A. Brevet Major General of Volunteers until 1865 when he reverts back to regular captain. Promoted to Lt. Colonel of the 7th US Cavalry. Customarily referred to as General, the highest rank achieved regular or brevet. Didn't get regular General's pay, just the responsibility and authority.
Post War promotions were very hard to get and Volunteers rank was reduced for regular service. This is when the Chasm between enlisted and commissioned soldiers started. The officer corps would have nothing to do with their troops and the strict chain of command was observed.
FYI
Cheers!
 
I always defer to George A. Brevet Major General of Volunteers until 1865 when he reverts back to regular captain. Promoted to Lt. Colonel of the 7th US Cavalry. Customarily referred to as General, the highest rank achieved regular or brevet. Didn't get regular General's pay, just the responsibility and authority.
Post War promotions were very hard to get and Volunteers rank was reduced for regular service. This is when the Chasm between enlisted and commissioned soldiers started. The officer corps would have nothing to do with their troops and the strict chain of command was observed.
FYI
Cheers!

To make the brevet commission subject even more fun, in the US service, the brevets were divided between Regular Army and Volunteers brevets!

For example, George A. Custer's brevets might illustrate. As captain in the Regular Army, he received a commission as brigadier general of Volunteers June 29, 1863. From there for the next two years he received multiple brevets until his next promotion in the Volunteer service.

I will illustrate the regular army brevets in red, and the volunteer brevets in green below.

While serving as a Brigadier General of Volunteers he was commissioned Brevet Major, July 3, 1863, Brevet Lt. Colonel May 11, 1864, Brevet Colonel Sept. 19, 1864, Brevet Major General of Volunteers from Oct. 19, 1864, and brevet brigadier general March 13, 1865, and brevet major general from the same date.

He was promoted to major general of volunteers April 15, 1865. He mustered out of the Volunteer service the next year, leaving him a captain of cavalry in the Regular Army, and shortly promoted to Lt. Col. of the 7th Cavalry. At the time of his death ten years later, leading his regiment as its senior officer in the field, he yet held brevets of major general.


1765250347499.webp
 
To make the brevet commission subject even more fun, in the US service, the brevets were divided between Regular Army and Volunteers brevets!

For example, George A. Custer's brevets might illustrate. As captain in the Regular Army, he received a commission as brigadier general of Volunteers June 29, 1863. From there for the next two years he received multiple brevets until his next promotion in the Volunteer service.

I will illustrate the regular army brevets in red, and the volunteer brevets in green below.

While serving as a Brigadier General of Volunteers he was commissioned Brevet Major, July 3, 1863, Brevet Lt. Colonel May 11, 1864, Brevet Colonel Sept. 19, 1864, Brevet Major General of Volunteers from Oct. 19, 1864, and brevet brigadier general March 13, 1865, and brevet major general from the same date.

He was promoted to major general of volunteers April 15, 1865. He mustered out of the Volunteer service the next year, leaving him a captain of cavalry in the Regular Army, and shortly promoted to Lt. Col. of the 7th Cavalry. At the time of his death ten years later, leading his regiment as its senior officer in the field, he yet held brevets of major general.


View attachment 569779
I guess since Col. Sturgis remained an administration officer George A. got to play in the field. Brevet rank I guess wouldn't kick in unless Gibbon or Terry became immobilized somehow. Crook abandoned the field so he might have held rank but not where the action was. Oh well, never happened. I bet Benteen had a brevet or two also.
Cheers!
 
I guess since Col. Sturgis remained an administration officer George A. got to play in the field. Brevet rank I guess wouldn't kick in unless Gibbon or Terry became immobilized somehow. Crook abandoned the field so he might have held rank but not where the action was. Oh well, never happened. I bet Benteen had a brevet or two also.
Cheers!

Colonel Sturgis of the 7th Cavalry was on detached service from the regiment during the Little Bighorn action, so as to leave Lt. Col. Custer to command. But Sturgis' young son, recently commissioned was with Custer, and was killed in action. Sturgis criticized Custer afterward in the press for allowing himself to be "overreached by Indian tactics, and hundreds of lives sacrificed thereby..."

Colonel Sturgis was active in the field commanding the regiment in the Nez Perce war the next year...

1765256180324.webp


Col. Sturgis was himself holder of a brevet of major general...

1765256965735.webp



Captain Benteen, at the time of the Little Bighorn battle, held a brevet of colonel. He retired from the Army as a major in 1888, and in 1890 received commission as brevet brigadier general for his services under Custer at Little Bighorn in 1876, and under Col. Sturgis at Canyon Creek in 1877.

1765257153990.webp
 
Colonel Sturgis of the 7th Cavalry was on detached service from the regiment during the Little Bighorn action, so as to leave Lt. Col. Custer to command. But Sturgis' young son, recently commissioned was with Custer, and was killed in action. Sturgis criticized Custer afterward in the press for allowing himself to be "overreached by Indian tactics, and hundreds of lives sacrificed thereby..."

Colonel Sturgis was active in the field commanding the regiment in the Nez Perce war the next year...

View attachment 569780

Col. Sturgis was himself holder of a brevet of major general...

View attachment 569784


Captain Benteen, at the time of the Little Bighorn battle, held a brevet of colonel. He retired from the Army as a major in 1888, and in 1890 received commission as brevet brigadier general for his services under Custer at Little Bighorn in 1876, and under Col. Sturgis at Canyon Creek in 1877.

View attachment 569785
Sad about hos son. Custer Apollo on youtube explains his theories on what went down at LBH in 31 small installment videos. He surmises that Lt. Sturgis led the charge to clear a way for the riders to break out and ended up separated from the LSH and then his men ran down towards the Big Ravine. His body never identified. Possibly was the head and or other body parts found in the native camp afterwards. I think a blood stained shirt of his was found in the camp. Nobody knows for sure. Once or more cavalrymen could have been captured alive and tortured to death that night.
 
No, I think commissioned is the right word. That's the only way one can be given any rank above Enlisted. Commission date settles arguments about who commands if two equal ranks are ordered to act in unison. Date of Commission settles it.
There is a clear difference between a brevet and a normal commission. I was talking about when an officer temporarily filled the role of his brevet rank and then went back to his duties of his normal commission.
 
There is a clear difference between a brevet and a normal commission. I was talking about when an officer temporarily filled the role of his brevet rank and then went back to his duties of his normal commission.
Post-war the volunteer army was demobilized and with it, the volunteers' rank. The soldier could still be addressed by his brevet rank, but he'd revert back to his post-war rank/regular army commission. So you are correct about an officer returning to his regular duties that were appropriate for his rank. Some were invited to remain in the army. Benjamin Grierson was among them and post-war he was Colonel of the 10th Cavalry. That's more than Custer who was Lt. Col. Grant never got bumped down.
 
Post-war the volunteer army was demobilized and with it, the volunteers' rank. The soldier could still be addressed by his brevet rank, but he'd revert back to his post-war rank/regular army commission.
This may conflate two things - you could certainly have a brevet rank in the regular army! But the regular army didn't have jobs for dozens and dozens of generals.

For example, in 1867 the 1st Cavalry looks like this:

1765280657110.webp

The Colonel is a brevet BG.
The Lt. Col is a brevet MG.
The captains include two brevet volunteer BGs (Reno and Sumner), but note that Blake and Elliott's general brevets are not marked as volunteer brevets. Both are 13 March 1865 - i.e. dated to the end of the war.



By this metric, i.e. not counting any brevets with "vol" in them, this is how many generals by brevet are listed on the 1867 army list in the cavalry arm:

1st Cav
Blake BG
Elliott MG
2nd Cav
Wood MG
Palmer BG
Pleasonton MG
3rd Cav
Grier BG
Roberts BG
4th Cav
Graham BG
Carleton BG
Johnson MG
Hatch BG
Long MG
McLaughlen BG
5th Cav
Emory MG
Duncan BG
Carr MG
6th Cav
Oakes BG
Lowe BG
7th Cav
Smith MG
Custer MG
Gibbs MG
8th Cav
Gregg BG
Devin BG (post-war)
Alexander BG
9th Cavalry
Hatch MG (post-war)
Merritt MG
10th Cav
Grierson MG (post-war)
Davidson MG
Forsyth BG

So 29 of them at this point, of which about 26 have generalcies dating back to the end of the war, mostly in the closing months.

The entire army has 17 line general slots, 1 General, 1 Lt G, 5 MG and 10 BG (though interestingly every single man holding a line BG slot also has a MG's brevet in the regular army at this point, nine of them from the closing months of the war) along with the generals commanding specific departments like QMG.
 
Did brevet ranks have to be "activated" in order to apply?
I'm fairly certain that brevet or regular (volunteer and regular) promotions operate essentially the same as today. The promotion belongs to the officer. He can either accept or decline it. But it's as true in 1863 as it is today, rank is tied to position. If the officer accepted the promotion he could pin on and be assigned to a vacancy at that authorized rank. Or he if he accepted it he could defer pinnining on the new rank until a vacancy occurs and he is assigned to it. Or I suppose an officer could accept the brevet and never pin on.

I had a similar situation. I met the board in July, selected for promotion in December, accepted my promotion but deferred pinning on. Although I accepted my promotion I remained a Lt Col until I was selected to a position in the higher grade, Colonel.

My point being I don't think there is any special regs for brevet. Rank is always tied to position, which Congress sets the number of by statute. Even in the ACW.
 
My point being I don't think there is any special regs for brevet. Rank is always tied to position, which Congress sets the number of by statute. Even in the ACW.

Now, but not then. A brevet is a real promotion in the Army, but not matched be a promotion in the Regiment. You get a written Commission in said brevet rank. Until 1870, the correct rank to wear is the Army (i.e. brevet) rank even if not ordered to duty in that rank.

For example, when the 1st and 2nd US Cavalry was formed in 1855, as they were considered a new corps, no-one had any regimental rank in the Cavalry, even if they had held rank in either the Dragoons or Mounted Rifles. Hence everyone immediately got their Army rank as their new Regimental rank.
 
I'm not quite sure I understand. What do you define as "Regimental rank"?


Here's a pre-ACW Army List image, from 1848:

1765311379851.webp

You might note that the Rank column has two sides - Rank in the Regiment and Rank in the Army. Persifor F. Smith (lovely name) has the rank of Colonel in the Regiment and BG in the Army, with separate dates.


On the next page:

1765311477999.webp


Benjamin K. Pierce has the rank of Lt. Col in the Regiment with a date of rank 19 March 1842. He also has the rank of Lt. Col in the Army, but since he got that rank as a brevet 21 August 1836 his separate date of rank is listed there (as when he became a Lt. Col in the Regiment, he had already been one in the Army for five and a half years).
 
Saph is correct, but I'll expand.

Each regiment had a fix establishment of officers, but is allowed to have one extra 2Lt as a brevet 2Lt per coy. Typical entry into service on passing out from USMA was as a brevet 2Lt, and the higher the ranking in the class, the more prestigious a regiment/corps you were assigned to. In each year, there would be a set number each corps could take. The Engineers were considered the highest, then the Topographic Engineers, then Ordnance, then Dragoons, then Artillery, then Infantry and Rifles.

Typically, each regiment was full, and an officer could expect to spend the first few years in service as a Bvt 2Lt, that is Commissioned as a 2Lt in the Army (with seniority defined by their position in the USMA class), but as a supernumenary attached to a regiment awaiting lineal "promotion" to 2Lt. The rank, like all brevets, was a real Commission requiring the approval of Congress.

Generally, all promotion was strictly lineal by seniority. The officer would wait to move up to 2Lt, then 1Lt and then Capt in their regiment. For field ranks, lineal promotion is by corps; for example all infantry regiments were considered a single corps so when a majority became available it would go to the senior captain across the infantry regiments. Frocking to general officer was by selection.

Brevets were awarded for ten years continuous service without promotion, for named actions, or to preserve rank when units were reduced. At times, brevets gave seniority for regimental promotion, and at times this was ignored.

Taking R.E. Lee as an example:

Lee ranked second in the class of 1829, and the Engineers were accepting 2 bvt 2Lts that year. Thus he is assigned as a bvt 2Lt to the Corps of Engineers. On the 1830 Army Register he ranks as the 3rd bvt 2Lt - he has to move up three slots to become a regimental 2Lt.

By 1832 Lee had risen six places. All lineal Commissions were confirmed by Congress in March. Lee is new a 2Lt in the Engineers with seniority to 1st July 1829. This is another point that changed - in the 1830's when promoted to a rank in the regiment equal to rank in the army (brevet rank) then the regimental seniority backdated immediately the the brevet. By the ACW this was not being done, and both ranks were left on the Register.

In 1836 Lee had risen to be the senior 2Lt and another move up happens, making him an acting 1Lt until March 1837, where the rank is confirmed by Congress as 1Lt.

In 1838 the establishment of the Engineers is increased from the equivalent of six coys (6 each allowed of Capt, 1Lt, 2Lt and bvt 2Lt) to ten. All subalterns moved up seven slots (the establishment was increased by 1 Lt Col, 2 Majs and 4 Capts), and Lee lineally ascends to Capt.

Now, if Lee had not received a promotion or brevet before 1848, he would be due to be bumped to brevet major in March 1849. However, he was awarded three brevets for Mexico in August 1848, all of which were backdated to the event. Lee is still a regimental captain, but is a bird colonel in the Army with seniority to 13th September 1847.

In 1852, Lee was assigned to be superintendent of the USMA in the rank of colonel, according to his Army rank. He is still a captain in the Engineers. In 1855, when the Corps of Cavalry was created, Lee had risen to be the 2nd Capt in the Engineers, but was assigned to the Cavalry. As a new corps, no-one had any regimental rank, and so Army rank applied. Lee was technically second in seniority of the assigned officers (EV Sumner, RE Lee then JE Johnston), but AS Johnston, holding seniority in the line of an ex-2Lt (6th Inf), the now defunct rank of Colonel of Texas Volunteers and the staff rank of Paymaster, was dropped in ahead of Lee. It was a political appointment as the State of Texas liked him.

Finally, in March 1861 Col Sumner is promoted BG vice Twiggs, dismissed. Bvt Col RE Lee of the 2nd Cavalry lineally ascended to by Col of the 1st Cavalry and resigned soonafter.
 
Thanks for the explanation! Your post seems to comport with what I said, that rank is tied to a position. Is that a fair assessment?
Rank in the regiment is tied to a position, while rank in the army is not. If your army rank differs from your regiment rank you have two entries on the rank list - or three, if one army rank is volunteer and one is regular, for example - but if your army rank and seniority is the same as the position you occupy then they don't bother listing off the army one.

ED: to be exercised, to my understanding at least, rank does need to be being used in a position. If you're in the regimental position then your regimental rank applies and you get regimental-rank pay.
 
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Rank in the regiment is tied to a position, while rank in the army is not.
Thank you. I believe we are saying the same thing just from different viewpoints. I'm sure I probably didn't add enough context. What I was specifically referring to was @Stryker65 question and explain how an officer with a higher regimental rank could command an officer possessed of a higher brevet rank. Which I believe you've illustrated with the table. Is that a fair assessment?
 

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