After the flag

The other part of the equation is the level of discourse- while you are reasonable and present cogent arguments, many of the pro-CSA crowd (and often the ones featured on TV) aren't as eloquent; their invective and hostility and complete contempt for everyone who disagrees with their view doesn't help make the case for preservation- if anything, it will generate more sympathy and support for the anti-CSA crowd from the people in the middle who haven't really made up their minds yet.

This is a fair point. Those who are held up as spokespeople for the different sides will have an affect. But I'd argue that the results of this argument are baked in. The only critical factor being that we finally have this argument on a national scale. Any "pro-CSA" argument wins out in today's America only in isolation, not when you bring more of the wider population into it. This is why some politicians who previously paid homage to the "pro-CSA" crowd made such an about face the second the national spotlight switched on.
 
You can almost be sure that Lee will be next.

It will be sad that I probably will not be able to take my grand-children to Mississippi State University to show them General Lee's statue.
It is a family tradition to walk out on the "drill field", south of Lee Hall and rub the nose of General Lee.

This is a photo of my Dad taken in 1939.
Lee_Statue.jpg
 
That bump in membership is what I'd expect to see in a situation like this- people are energized and angry and rush to take a stand; this, however, doesn't tell the whole story.

That's true but many of those with whom I've spoken have not really been interested in the past but say the current efforts to remove anything Confederate goes way too far.

Without diving into the math and establishing metrics and benchmarks, we can look at observable outcomes to infer where the balance on the pro/anti CSA spectrum sits- namely, the lack of support from politicial figures at all levels, especially those who have traditionally been supporters/neutral towards CSA displays; these figures (or their staffs) have calculated they'll receive more votes and receive less pushback by opposing CSA issues than by supporting them. Ditto Walmart, Nascar, and others who've opted to distance themselves from it. The outcry of protest from the CSA supporters is significant, but judging from the actions of people who make a living on knowing which way the winds blow is unsustainable.

One would hope they had, in fact, done the calculus, though, it happened so quickly after events that I wonder how that was accomplished.

The other part of the equation is the level of discourse- while you are reasonable and present cogent arguments, many of the pro-CSA crowd (and often the ones featured on TV) aren't as eloquent; their invective and hostility and complete contempt for everyone who disagrees with their view doesn't help make the case for preservation- if anything, it will generate more sympathy and support for the anti-CSA crowd from the people in the middle who haven't really made up their minds yet.

As with most things, the media is rarely the friend of anyone. They always seem to seek out those who will be the best sensationalism for their media. There are many who are on my side of the argument who say things I wish they wouldn't but I have no control over that, either. Apparently, in order to defend my heritage, to some here I must stifle those with more radical and unrefined as well as go back in time to do battle with segregationists. I'm sorry, I reject such notions.

I am sensitive to your point about stirring up even more anti-Confederate fervor. They already want to rename virtually anything named after a Confederate to the declaration that Confederate monuments are nuisances to the denial of the placement of Confederate flags on soldiers' graves to digging up General Forrest, it raises in my mind a question: How much worse could it get? What are the next steps? Reeducation camps for those of us who refuse to accept that our ancestors are so evil and so vile that they make mass murderers look warm and fuzzy?

I realize this is hyperbole but I never thought I'd see the day when General Forrest would be threatened with disinterment to further some political agenda. There are many aspects of this current cultural cleansing I would have thought impossible even only a few months ago. If my views are unpopular, I can live with that. It will not affect my willingness to fight for what I think is right.
 
What I see in these threads vs past discussions on this forum is that people care an order of magnitude more about the CBF coming down than they ever cared about the KKK co-opting it.

Which.....is why it's coming down.

Whole bunch of folks can't seem to make that connection though.
 
This thread began rather innocuously but some interesting ideas have been posted, and it got me to thinking.

The tidal wave of emotions now focused on the CBF will lead to removal of some CSA monuments and statues. There is no stopping it. Heritage folks can wail about it, but if they fight using the old messages like the ones on this forum, they will lose.

I am against removal of monuments to confederate soldiers. However, even if my view mattered to those making a decision to keep or remove a monument, I am afraid that my message would be too convoluted for many to understand. Here is my pitch, what do you think?


"Yes, the Civil War was about slavery and slavery was very bad, not just inhuman but a system diabolical in its use of violence to oppress. The south left the union to protect slavery, but the north did not fight to end slavery, rather to preserve the Union. Only after more than a year and a half of war did the Union free slaves, and even then only in places under rebellion and as a war tactic, to deprive the Confederacy of labor.

What the policans made, soldier lived.


Soldiers, North and South fought for many of the same reasons, because it was their duty, to join friends, to seek adventure, or because they were drafted. Many Southern soldiers fought because the south was being invaded; Northern soldiers invaded the south to put down a rebellion. Few soldiers North or South fought over slavery. Most Southern soldiers did not own slaves, and many Northern soldiers believed that slavery was a right protected in the constitution. In fact, most soldiers, North and South were racists by today's standards. They could not view African Americans as equals as they had never seen them in circumstances where they could demonstrate their equality.

After the war, communities north and south built monuments to their soldiers. Some may interpret monuments to confederate soldiers as pro-slavery, but cannot we also look at them as simply honoring the common soldier? We can interpret monuments to Union soldiers as anti-slavery, but look at these monuments closely. Most exalt the war to "Preserve the Union"; few describe it as a war to free slaves. Can we look past this ommission to simply honor the common soldier?

I say let all monuments stay, untouched, at least to remind us of how far we have come."
 
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What I see in these threads vs past discussions on this forum is that people care an order of magnitude more about the CBF coming down than they ever cared about the KKK co-opting it.

Which.....is why it's coming down.

Whole bunch of folks can't seem to make that connection though.

With all due respect, while you are entitled to your opinion, you are hardly speaking from personal knowledge. You have no idea what, I for example, have done to deal with the Klan or its use of Confederate symbols. From my perspective, you have formed an opinion not based upon facts but based upon speculation. When I asked you earlier, exactly what ought to have been done to wrestle use of the flag from the Klan, you refused to answer that question. Yet you keep saying it isn't and wasn't enough as though implying some sympathy for the Klan and its views. I find that more than a bit insulting and I think, that's exactly your intent. You are free to believe that but implying racism through innuendo does nothing but irritate those of us who sincerely care about these symbols and attacks upon them by either end of the political spectrum. I'm a big boy, I can take it, but it is a wholly ridiculous implication.
 
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I am against removal of monuments to confederate soldiers. However, even if my view mattered to those making a decision to keep or remove a monument, I am afraid that my message would be too convoluted for many to understand. Here is my pitch, what do you think?


"Yes, the Civil War was about slavery. The south left the union to protect slavery. The north began its war to keep the south in the union. Later the union emancipated slaves to deprive the confederacy of labor. Of course, slavery was a very bad thing, but this does not mean southern soldiers were devils and northern soldiers angels.

Soldiers, North and South fought for many of the same reasons, because it was their duty, to join friends, to seek adventure, or because they were drafted. Many Southern soldiers fought because the south was being invaded; Northern soldiers invaded the south to put down a rebellion. Few soldiers North or South fought over slavery. Most Southern soldiers did not own slaves, and many Northern soldiers believed that slavery was a right protected in the constitution. In fact, most soldiers, North and South were racists by today's standards. They could not view African Americans as equals as they had never seen them in circumstances where they could demonstrate their equality.

After the war, communities north and south built monuments to their soldiers. Some may interpret monuments to confederate soldiers as pro-slavery, but this is not necessarily the case. We can interpret monuments to Union soldiers as anti-slavery, but look at these monuments closely. Most exalt the war to "Preserve the Union"; few describe it as a war to free slaves.

I say let all monuments stay at least to remind us of how far we have come."



I do agree with you.............I would also add...........The United States, the Republican Party and Abraham Lincoln were willing and ready to allow slavery to continue in the states it existed up to and including an amendment to the United States Constitution, so as to preserve the Union. That part of history sometimes get's left out.

I think the Monuments/Memorials, and Statues should stay............Renaming streets, buildings and the such should be up to the people, not some of the people, not some of those in power, but all the people of the community/city/state. I said before many times I was for the removal of the Flag from government property and I was ok with seeing it come down. That is where this witch hunt needs to end.

IMHO...........................


1st National Confederate Flag   1.jpg

Respectfully,
William
 
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I do agree with you.............I would also add...........The United States, the Republican Party and Abraham Lincoln were willing and ready to allow slavery to continue in the states it existed up to and including an amendment to the United States Constitution, so as to preserve the Union. That part of history sometimes get's left out.

I think the Monuments/Memorials, and Statues should stay............Renaming streets, buildings and the such should be up to the people, not some of the people, not some of those in power, but all the people of the community/city/state. I said before many times I was for the removal of the Flag from government property and I was ok with seeing it come down. That is where this witch hunt needs to end.

IMHO...........................


View attachment 73676
Respectfully,
William

I think that if a truth cleansing about the CW is underway, it should cut both ways.

However, the reaction to the CBF is not about the CW, its about the use of the CBF as a symbol of segregation and by post war hate groups. Sorry to say this is a differnt issue.
 
I think that if a truth cleansing about the CW is underway, it should cut both ways.

However, the reaction to the CBF is not about the CW, its about the use of the CBF as a symbol of segregation and by post war hate groups. Sorry to say this is a different issue.


Truth cleansing should, as you stated, cut both ways............

You are correct Mild53 the use of the CBF as a segregation symbol is another issue.

I do not fly my CBF as a segregation symbol, those that see the CBF as a segregation issue need to base their objections, their demands, and their attack to the institutions(KKK and any other hate groups) that use the CBF as a symbol of segregation and hate, not by attacking and attempting to eradicate my Confederate Heritage.


1st National Confederate Flag   1.jpg

Respectfully,
William
 
I do agree with you.............I would also add...........The United States, the Republican Party and Abraham Lincoln were willing and ready to allow slavery to continue in the states it existed up to and including an amendment to the United States Constitution, so as to preserve the Union. That part of history sometimes get's left out.

I think the Monuments/Memorials, and Statues should stay............Renaming streets, buildings and the such should be up to the people, not some of the people, not some of those in power, but all the people of the community/city/state. I said before many times I was for the removal of the Flag from government property and I was ok with seeing it come down. That is where this witch hunt needs to end.

IMHO...........................


View attachment 73676
Respectfully,
William

Would you be opposed to renaming streets in New Orleans, William, like the Jefferson Davis Pkwy.?
 
Still not going to hide the fact though, Right?.......................And yes UB you may have a cookie.

View attachment 73692

Respectfully,
William

William,

There is nothing to hide. The US flag being hijacked by the KKK is a historical fact. But so is the CBF being embraced by the KKK because they feel it represents their views is another. Or why is it they simply don't stick with one vice the other?

Sincerely,
Unionblue
 
William,

There is nothing to hide. The US flag being hijacked by the KKK is a historical fact. But so is the CBF being embraced by the KKK because they feel it represents their views is another. Or why is it they simply don't stick with one vice the other?

Sincerely,
Unionblue


Then if nothing to hide, then why the "sigh" when the photo was posted ?
I have noticed each time something negative but factual against the "Pro-Union stance" there is an uproar or in some cases "sighs"

Perhaps I misunderstood your "sigh"



Flag Of The AoNV  1.jpg

Respectfully,
William
 
Truth cleansing should, as you stated, cut both ways............

You are correct Mild53 the use of the CBF as a segregation symbol is another issue.

I do not fly my CBF as a segregation symbol, those that see the CBF as a segregation issue need to base their objections, their demands, and their attack to the institutions(KKK and any other hate groups) that use the CBF as a symbol of segregation and hate, not by attacking and attempting to eradicate my Confederate Heritage.


View attachment 73681
Respectfully,
William
Separating the CBF from segregation and hate groups is, unfortunately, not possible.
 
With all due respect, while you are entitled to your opinion, you are hardly speaking from personal knowledge. You have no idea what, I for example, have done to deal with the Klan or its use of Confederate symbols. From my perspective, you have formed an opinion not based upon facts but based upon speculation. When I asked you earlier, exactly what ought to have been done to wrestle use of the flag from the Klan, you refused to answer that question. Yet you keep saying it isn't and wasn't enough as though implying some sympathy for the Klan and its views. I find that more than a bit insulting and I think, that's exactly your intent. You are free to believe that but implying racism through innuendo does nothing but irritate those of us who sincerely care about these symbols and attacks upon them by either end of the political spectrum. I'm a big boy, I can take it, but it is a wholly ridiculous implication.
If it had been enough, we wouldn't be having this convo. Like many heritage types, your anger is misdirected.
 

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