After the flag

[MRB1863]

Nope, it's very much a part of history. The part the heritage groups keep trying to whitewash and erase.

I was simply referring to a monument erected with no historical significance with a primary and sole intent to intimidate, belittle or otherwise harass another of an opposing view. Something that is rooted in History without taint DOES belong to our National Heritage whether we like it or not. Again, we must accept the good with the bad and not recognize a memorial used only as a distasteful provocation as a part of our History.

 

[K Hale]

To whom do we complain, Ms. Hale. The SCV has long had a policy of denouncing them and everything for which they stand. What, exactly, should they have done differently?

Too little too late -- and not my problem. Not my circus, not my monkeys. If it bothers the SCV, they can figure it out.

 

[CMWinkler]

Too little too late -- and not my problem. Not my circus, not my monkeys. If it bothers the SCV, they can figure it out.

So denouncing isn't enough. Having a policy against them isn't enough. At least that's what I'm told, by people who want me to say it's ok, I'll give up the symbols of my heritage. I think I'll pass.

 

[K Hale]

So denouncing isn't enough. Having a policy against them isn't enough. At least that's what I'm told, by people who want me to say it's ok, I'll give up the symbols of my heritage. I think I'll pass.

Well, obviously it wasn't enough, was it? Because here we are.

 

[CMWinkler]

Well, obviously it wasn't enough, was it? Because here we are.

We are here because of an irrational response to an indefensible act by a single individual. It isn't about the Klan running amuck murdering innocent blacks willy nilly while waving Confederate flags. We're here because politicians feel the need to respond to this act by doing something, anything, no matter how irrational or useless it is.

 

[Shadow9216]

In the end, it's about numbers. There are more people opposed to anything Confederate than supporting anything Confederate- and the pro-Confederates have no one to blame but themselves. Upset about this attack on your heritage, your traditions? It's your own actions coming back to bite you. Every time someone was told "Get over it" when they complained about the CBF, every time someone was told to "Grow a thicker skin" when they protested about the presence of Confederate monuments in their communities, and every time a Southern politician proposed a law prohibiting removal or renaming of anything Confederate in response to a community's desire for change, there was an increase in the anti-Confederate camps; now that they have numbers on their side, there's no need for a conciliatory or negotiated approach, and they're free to use the same scorched-earth approach that was employed against them for decades.

You see, the CBF isn't a symbol of "Southern Pride"...it never was. It never represented Southern Unionists, it certainly didn't represent the millions of slaves, and it likely didn't represent the free black populations of the Confederate states. So how could this flag- a battle flag flown by men who were tasked with killing United States Army soldiers and United States Navy sailors- represent "the South"? Of course, anyone can claim that the flag represents them, but there are lots of people it doesn't represent, despite grandiose declarations to the contrary.

Bottom line- you reap what you sow. For years, it's been taken for granted that people could put up markers and monuments and flags and banners in support of the Confederacy wherever they wanted; anyone protesting was dismissed, disregarded, and often disparaged- even now the accusation of "PC" is thrown about recklessly. So long as the pro-CSA camp was in charge, there was never a problem- as they saw it. But they're losing that grip, and they don't like it, and maybe they have an understanding of what it was like to have their concerns ignored, their protests dismissed? Maybe they can empathize with those people who didn't like anything CSA, but had to grit their teeth and deal with it.

However it works out, it won't be pretty- there's no real urge for reconciliation on the part of the people who now have momentum on their side; the more the CSA supporters dig in and ramp up their rhetoric, the more people will gravitate to the opposition. The opportunities to mitigate this are few, and dwindling...good luck!

 

[Shadow9216]

We are here because of an irrational response to an indefensible act by a single individual. It isn't about the Klan running amuck murdering innocent blacks willy nilly while waving Confederate flags. We're here because politicians feel the need to respond to this act by doing something, anything, no matter how irrational or useless it is.

I've read enough of your posts to know that you honestly believe this, and I respect your opinion as much as I must disagree with it. Roof, by all accounts, had tipped over into ****acism- his manifesto was quite clear on that point- and chose symbols he felt represented that belief, including the CBF. Whether you personally believe it or not, there are a great number of **** groups who rely on Confederate symbols and writings to bolster their arguments for segregation, racial inequality, and even a separate white nation. They, in turn, see public displays of the CBF and support for Confederate trappings as being an endorsement of their agendas...again, it's not whether you agree, it's whether they believe it or not. Removing the appearance of at least tacit support of anything Confederate- except as a historic artifact- helps to delegitimize their beliefs, just as telling someone you don't enjoy their ethnic jokes removes the appearance that you approve of such humor.

 

[unionblue]

In the end, it's about numbers. There are more people opposed to anything Confederate than supporting anything Confederate- and the pro-Confederates have no one to blame but themselves. Upset about this attack on your heritage, your traditions? It's your own actions coming back to bite you. Every time someone was told "Get over it" when they complained about the CBF, every time someone was told to "Grow a thicker skin" when they protested about the presence of Confederate monuments in their communities, and every time a Southern politician proposed a law prohibiting removal or renaming of anything Confederate in response to a community's desire for change, there was an increase in the anti-Confederate camps; now that they have numbers on their side, there's no need for a conciliatory or negotiated approach, and they're free to use the same scorched-earth approach that was employed against them for decades.

You see, the CBF isn't a symbol of "Southern Pride"...it never was. It never represented Southern Unionists, it certainly didn't represent the millions of slaves, and it likely didn't represent the free black populations of the Confederate states. So how could this flag- a battle flag flown by men who were tasked with killing United States Army soldiers and United States Navy sailors- represent "the South"? Of course, anyone can claim that the flag represents them, but there are lots of people it doesn't represent, despite grandiose declarations to the contrary.

Bottom line- you reap what you sow. For years, it's been taken for granted that people could put up markers and monuments and flags and banners in support of the Confederacy wherever they wanted; anyone protesting was dismissed, disregarded, and often disparaged- even now the accusation of "PC" is thrown about recklessly. So long as the pro-CSA camp was in charge, there was never a problem- as they saw it. But they're losing that grip, and they don't like it, and maybe they have an understanding of what it was like to have their concerns ignored, their protests dismissed? Maybe they can empathize with those people who didn't like anything CSA, but had to grit their teeth and deal with it.

However it works out, it won't be pretty- there's no real urge for reconciliation on the part of the people who now have momentum on their side; the more the CSA supporters dig in and ramp up their rhetoric, the more people will gravitate to the opposition. The opportunities to mitigate this are few, and dwindling...good luck!

Well said and most timely.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[unionblue]

To whom do we complain, Ms. Hale. The SCV has long had a policy of denouncing them and everything for which they stand. What, exactly, should they have done differently?

I too, feel the SCV was far too mild and far too late with it's protests to groups like the KKK. If more effort had been directed at such groups instead of the constant 'heritage alerts' and perceived slights, if the SCV had guarded black churches from being burnt down vice guarding monuments, I doubt if a crazed individual would have seen much merit in claiming the CBF as a symbol of his 'heritage.'

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[unionblue]

That's what I thought you meant! I don't mind - in fact, think it should be done - removing these in-yer-face type things. That's not about anything but irritating people. But removal, as you say, of other memorials and figures isn't necessary and does what the irritation monuments do - in-yer-face, we can do this. And I'm all for correcting poor to bad information on these items. For instance, I'm pleased that it isn't Custer's massacre anymore but the Battle of Little Bighorn. It was a battle.

diane,

Well thought out and logical as always.

And I completely agree.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[K Hale]

We are here because of an irrational response to an indefensible act by a single individual. It isn't about the Klan running amuck murdering innocent blacks willy nilly while waving Confederate flags. We're here because politicians feel the need to respond to this act by doing something, anything, no matter how irrational or useless it is.

If only the SCV had been effective in its civil rights era campaign to reclaim the CBF, Dylann Roof wouldn't have latched onto it as a symbol for his beliefs and the CBF wouldn't be under attack now. But he did latch onto it. I wonder why?

 

[K Hale]

In the end, it's about numbers. There are more people opposed to anything Confederate than supporting anything Confederate- and the pro-Confederates have no one to blame but themselves. Upset about this attack on your heritage, your traditions? It's your own actions coming back to bite you. Every time someone was told "Get over it" when they complained about the CBF, every time someone was told to "Grow a thicker skin" when they protested about the presence of Confederate monuments in their communities, and every time a Southern politician proposed a law prohibiting removal or renaming of anything Confederate in response to a community's desire for change, there was an increase in the anti-Confederate camps; now that they have numbers on their side, there's no need for a conciliatory or negotiated approach, and they're free to use the same scorched-earth approach that was employed against them for decades.

You see, the CBF isn't a symbol of "Southern Pride"...it never was. It never represented Southern Unionists, it certainly didn't represent the millions of slaves, and it likely didn't represent the free black populations of the Confederate states. So how could this flag- a battle flag flown by men who were tasked with killing United States Army soldiers and United States Navy sailors- represent "the South"? Of course, anyone can claim that the flag represents them, but there are lots of people it doesn't represent, despite grandiose declarations to the contrary.

Bottom line- you reap what you sow. For years, it's been taken for granted that people could put up markers and monuments and flags and banners in support of the Confederacy wherever they wanted; anyone protesting was dismissed, disregarded, and often disparaged- even now the accusation of "PC" is thrown about recklessly. So long as the pro-CSA camp was in charge, there was never a problem- as they saw it. But they're losing that grip, and they don't like it, and maybe they have an understanding of what it was like to have their concerns ignored, their protests dismissed? Maybe they can empathize with those people who didn't like anything CSA, but had to grit their teeth and deal with it.

However it works out, it won't be pretty- there's no real urge for reconciliation on the part of the people who now have momentum on their side; the more the CSA supporters dig in and ramp up their rhetoric, the more people will gravitate to the opposition. The opportunities to mitigate this are few, and dwindling...good luck!

In other words.... Bottom rail on top now.

 

[CMWinkler]

I've read enough of your posts to know that you honestly believe this, and I respect your opinion as much as I must disagree with it. Roof, by all accounts, had tipped over into ****acism- his manifesto was quite clear on that point- and chose symbols he felt represented that belief, including the CBF. Whether you personally believe it or not, there are a great number of **** groups who rely on Confederate symbols and writings to bolster their arguments for segregation, racial inequality, and even a separate white nation. They, in turn, see public displays of the CBF and support for Confederate trappings as being an endorsement of their agendas...again, it's not whether you agree, it's whether they believe it or not. Removing the appearance of at least tacit support of anything Confederate- except as a historic artifact- helps to delegitimize their beliefs, just as telling someone you don't enjoy their ethnic jokes removes the appearance that you approve of such humor.

As always, I respect your views but disagree. You said in your general post that there were more anti-Confederate than pro, and I'm not convinced that is true. The polls I've seen do not reflect that nor has the groundswell of opinion I have received since I was interviewed by Nashville's Channel 2 about the issues. Additionally, in the last two weeks I've processed four new SCV memberships for my Camp and have an additional six in various stages of completion. That reflects a normal year's recruiting in two weeks.

With all the hoopla surrounding the events in Charleston with the subsequent calls to not only bring down the flag but to destroy Confederate monuments and to even dig up General Forrest, there are many people who think things are spinning out of control and that are now speaking up who have remained silent before.

You might well be correct, but this is not a struggle I am willing to walk away from. I will do all I can to protect the good name and honor of the Confederate soldier and fight to protect his remembrance.

 

[Mild53]

In the end, it's about numbers. There are more people opposed to anything Confederate than supporting anything Confederate- and the pro-Confederates have no one to blame but themselves. Upset about this attack on your heritage, your traditions? It's your own actions coming back to bite you. Every time someone was told "Get over it" when they complained about the CBF, every time someone was told to "Grow a thicker skin" when they protested about the presence of Confederate monuments in their communities, and every time a Southern politician proposed a law prohibiting removal or renaming of anything Confederate in response to a community's desire for change, there was an increase in the anti-Confederate camps; now that they have numbers on their side, there's no need for a conciliatory or negotiated approach, and they're free to use the same scorched-earth approach that was employed against them for decades.

You see, the CBF isn't a symbol of "Southern Pride"...it never was. It never represented Southern Unionists, it certainly didn't represent the millions of slaves, and it likely didn't represent the free black populations of the Confederate states. So how could this flag- a battle flag flown by men who were tasked with killing United States Army soldiers and United States Navy sailors- represent "the South"? Of course, anyone can claim that the flag represents them, but there are lots of people it doesn't represent, despite grandiose declarations to the contrary.

Bottom line- you reap what you sow. For years, it's been taken for granted that people could put up markers and monuments and flags and banners in support of the Confederacy wherever they wanted; anyone protesting was dismissed, disregarded, and often disparaged- even now the accusation of "PC" is thrown about recklessly. So long as the pro-CSA camp was in charge, there was never a problem- as they saw it. But they're losing that grip, and they don't like it, and maybe they have an understanding of what it was like to have their concerns ignored, their protests dismissed? Maybe they can empathize with those people who didn't like anything CSA, but had to grit their teeth and deal with it.

However it works out, it won't be pretty- there's no real urge for reconciliation on the part of the people who now have momentum on their side; the more the CSA supporters dig in and ramp up their rhetoric, the more people will gravitate to the opposition. The opportunities to mitigate this are few, and dwindling...good luck!

Absolutely the best and most complete comment on this thread. Thank you.

 

[Mild53]

As always, I respect your views but disagree. You said in your general post that there were more anti-Confederate than pro, and I'm not convinced that is true. The polls I've seen do not reflect that nor has the groundswell of opinion I have received since I was interviewed by Nashville's Channel 2 about the issues. Additionally, in the last two weeks I've processed four new SCV memberships for my Camp and have an additional six in various stages of completion. That reflects a normal year's recruiting in two weeks.

With all the hoopla surrounding the events in Charleston with the subsequent calls to not only bring down the flag but to destroy Confederate monuments and to even dig up General Forrest, there are many people who think things are sinning out of control and that are now speaking up who have remained silent before.

You might well be correct, but this is not a struggle I am willing to walk away from. I will do all I can to protect the good name and honor of the Confederate soldier and fight to protect his remembrance.

You are creating a new definition for "Lost Cause".

 

[CSA Today]

 

[CMWinkler]

You are creating a new definition for "Lost Cause".

And what definition would that be?

 

[Mild53]

And what definition would that be?

Your war of words to stem public reaction to the CBF from extending to confederate monuments and statutes.

Perhaps you should try some sugar...

 

[CMWinkler]

Your war of words to stem public reaction to the CBF from extending to confederate monuments and statutes.

Perhaps you should try some sugar...

That hardly answers my question. Exactly what is this new Lost Cause I am promulgating.

 

[Shadow9216]

As always, I respect your views but disagree. You said in your general post that there were more anti-Confederate than pro, and I'm not convinced that is true. The polls I've seen do not reflect that nor has the groundswell of opinion I have received since I was interviewed by Nashville's Channel 2 about the issues. Additionally, in the last two weeks I've processed four new SCV memberships for my Camp and have an additional six in various stages of completion. That reflects a normal year's recruiting in two weeks.

With all the hoopla surrounding the events in Charleston with the subsequent calls to not only bring down the flag but to destroy Confederate monuments and to even dig up General Forrest, there are many people who think things are spinning out of control and that are now speaking up who have remained silent before.

You might well be correct, but this is not a struggle I am willing to walk away from. I will do all I can to protect the good name and honor of the Confederate soldier and fight to protect his remembrance.

That bump in membership is what I'd expect to see in a situation like this- people are energized and angry and rush to take a stand; this, however, doesn't tell the whole story.

Without diving into the math and establishing metrics and benchmarks, we can look at observable outcomes to infer where the balance on the pro/anti CSA spectrum sits- namely, the lack of support from politicial figures at all levels, especially those who have traditionally been supporters/neutral towards CSA displays; these figures (or their staffs) have calculated they'll receive more votes and receive less pushback by opposing CSA issues than by supporting them. Ditto Walmart, Nascar, and others who've opted to distance themselves from it. The outcry of protest from the CSA supporters is significant, but judging from the actions of people who make a living on knowing which way the winds blow is unsustainable.

The other part of the equation is the level of discourse- while you are reasonable and present cogent arguments, many of the pro-CSA crowd (and often the ones featured on TV) aren't as eloquent; their invective and hostility and complete contempt for everyone who disagrees with their view doesn't help make the case for preservation- if anything, it will generate more sympathy and support for the anti-CSA crowd from the people in the middle who haven't really made up their minds yet.