After the flag

[R. Alex Raines]

I am not opposed to the renaming of any street, building, or park, but as I stated let it be decided by the people of that community/city/town/state, not by some, or some in power, but by all...........Do they not all have a say ?

View attachment 73683
Respectfully,
William

I'm sorry, William, but what you are suggesting is ridiculous. Essentially, you are suggesting that the standard to rename a public street/building/park needs to be decided by ballot every time. That's fairly expensive to implement. Additionally, meet our form of government. We elect representatives to serve on school boards and city councils to represent our interests. They are actually the exact people who should be making these sort of decisions. And as for your rhetorical question about 'Do they not all have a say,' respectfully, I'm going to pose one for you - Did everyone get a say when these places were named?

 

[unionblue]

Then if nothing to hide, then why the "sigh" when the photo was posted ?
I have noticed each time something negative but factual against the "Pro-Union stance" there is an uproar or in some cases "sighs"

Perhaps I misunderstood your "sigh"



View attachment 73695
Respectfully,
William

William,

The (sigh) is my sign of exasperation at CSA_Today's post.

It's old, overused, and an attempt at deflection, in my opinion.

I had hoped my full reply would also be taken into consideration.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[R. Alex Raines]

William,

The (sigh) is my sign of exasperation at CSA_Today's post.

It's old, overused, and an attempt at deflection, in my opinion.

I had hoped my full reply would also be taken into consideration.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Unionblue should not have to explain or justify his sighs.

 

[unionblue]

Unionblue should not have to explain or justify his sighs.

R. Alex Raines,

It's called a forum for a reason, my friend, and I don't mind explaining when asked by my other friend, William.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[18thVirginia]

I am not opposed to the renaming of any street, building, or park, but as I stated let it be decided by the people of that community/city/town/state, not by some, or some in power, but by all...........Do they not all have a say ?


View attachment 73683
Respectfully,
William

Just wondering why you consider that the City Council in New Orleans shouldn't be allowed to make decisions on the street names. Various streets in NOLA were renamed in the 1860s by the City Council--there is no Craps St. in NOLA. Jefferson Davis Pkwy. was renamed when the ladies of the New Orleans Memorial Association petitioned to have it renamed in 1913--assumedly that was done by the Council. The Mayor of New Orleans in the 1950s just renamed some streets himself.

So, you're suggesting that the City of New Orleans hold a special election--which is fairly expensive--over this issue? What's different?

Edited to add: I was writing this post and posting it and only saw Alex Rain's post afterwards. I apologize for the duplication.

 

[R. Alex Raines]

R. Alex Raines,

It's called a forum for a reason, my friend, and I don't mind explaining when asked by my other friend, William.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Then please, either Alex or Raines is fine.

 

[unionblue]

Then please, either Alex or Raines is fine.

Alex it is.

 

[CMWinkler]

If it had been enough, we wouldn't be having this convo. Like many heritage types, your anger is misdirected.

How so? Where is my 'anger' directed?

 

[K Hale]

Unionblue should not have to explain or justify his sighs.

I see what you did there...

 

[K Hale]

How so? Where is my 'anger' directed?

You and I and everyone in this thread and the fifty other threads you've created about the attack on Confederate Heritage know the answer to that question.

Now is not the time to be disingenuous. That's part of what got things to this stage.

 

[W. Richardson]

Just wondering why you consider that the City Council in New Orleans shouldn't be allowed to make decisions on the street names. Various streets in NOLA were renamed in the 1860s by the City Council--there is no Craps St. in NOLA. Jefferson Davis Pkwy. was renamed when the ladies of the New Orleans Memorial Association petitioned to have it renamed in 1913--assumedly that was done by the Council. The Mayor of New Orleans in the 1950s just renamed some streets himself.

So, you're suggesting that the City of New Orleans hold a special election--which is fairly expensive--over this issue? What's different?

Edited to add: I was writing this post and posting it and only saw Alex Rain's post afterwards. I apologize for the duplication.

Yes I believe the people should vote. I continue to see post with the "majority" is wanting names changed, monuments/memorials/statues removed.

Put it to a vote and see what the majority does indeed want and then abide by it.

That's my opinion...................Give the people the chance to speak, not some PC, or politically motivated politician with political agendas.

Respectfully,
William

 

[W. Richardson]

William,

The (sigh) is my sign of exasperation at CSA_Today's post.

It's old, overused, and an attempt at deflection, in my opinion.

I had hoped my full reply would also be taken into consideration.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Understood and I accept your explanation my friend UB.

I have seen many here use old, overused post and mostly as you stated, as an attempt at deflection......................

Respectfully,
William

 

[W. Richardson]

I'm sorry, William, but what you are suggesting is ridiculous. Essentially, you are suggesting that the standard to rename a public street/building/park needs to be decided by ballot every time. That's fairly expensive to implement. Additionally, meet our form of government. We elect representatives to serve on school boards and city councils to represent our interests. They are actually the exact people who should be making these sort of decisions. And as for your rhetorical question about 'Do they not all have a say,' respectfully, I'm going to pose one for you - Did everyone get a say when these places were named?

I don't find it anymore ridiculous than the witch hunt going on now to eradicate Confederate Heritage by some Confederatephobics..............

Did everyone get a voice in naming places before ? I can say NO they did not, but isn't this suppose to be a new time, a better time with new ways ? Aren't we suppose to be trying to come together? Work together? or we going to continue with ways that have failed? Some telling all what is to be.................Politicians have agendas and do not speak for all their constituents on all issues.

Would it be expensive? Yes I think so, but more expensive than removing 1,000's of monuments/memorials/statues because of some PC reasons or so called "I'm Offended"

Respectfully,
William

 

[Shadow9216]

Would it be expensive? Yes I think so, but more expensive than removing 1,000's of monuments/memorials/statues because of some PC reasons or so called "I'm Offended"

William, I'm not singling you out- but I want to address something I see a lot nowadays, and that's the dismissal of others' opinions as "PC", or "I'm Offended"- it's not much different than saying "Get over it" or "Grow thicker skin", and it doesn't actually address the problem or solve anything- and it certainly doesn't draw people on opposite sides together.

Thing is, although there are times when Political Correctness runs amok, the phrase is often used to denigrate a valid opinion: it may have been okay to refer to people by various slang terms- oftentimes slurs- but the fact it's no longer okay isn't because it's "PC", it's because it's the right thing to do. Same thing with "Being Offended"...when I say something that you find objectionable, you are perfectly within your right to tell me that. If I respect you (or I work for you), then I'll change my language; if not, I'll ignore you- but I'll be doing so deliberately this time, and any repercussions are on me. Free speech works both ways- we each get to express our opinion, including how that opinion makes us feel.

I bring this up because these two phrases crop up with alarming regularity in discourse nowadays, usually with people who want things to be "just as they were." Problem is, things aren't, and they won't be again, and we all need to accept that fact. I bring this up here because it's part of that "perception management" I keep harping on about- if the SCV and/or other pro-CSA groups hope to sway popular opinion, they need to control the message being delivered about all things Confederate; denigrating those with differing opinions won't do it.

Again, not targeted against any one person- just a pause for thought. What message are we sending when we communicate?

 

[Mild53]

What I see in these threads vs past discussions on this forum is that people care an order of magnitude more about the CBF coming down than they ever cared about the KKK co-opting it.

Which.....is why it's coming down.

Whole bunch of folks can't seem to make that connection though.

You hit the nail on the head. Had those who are so concerned about protecting their ancestors heritage, protested misuse of the CBF by segregationists and hate groups then it would not need protection now.

 

[18thVirginia]

Yes I believe the people should vote. I continue to see post with the "majority" is wanting names changed, monuments/memorials/statues removed.

Put it to a vote and see what the majority does indeed want and then abide by it.

That's my opinion...................Give the people the chance to speak, not some PC, or politically motivated politician with political agendas.



View attachment 73700
Respectfully,
William

The problem, William, is that some "politically motivated politician" made renaming decisions in the past. Now you're suggesting that when the citizenry in New Orleans is a black majority, the rules should be changed.

With all due respect, that's not "a new time" at all--that's some pretty old stuff.

 

[major bill]

My city has changed the names of a few streets and the world did not suddenly end. When I was a child I could stand at an intersection of two roads and each road was named after one side of my family. 45 years ago the road with my own last name was changed so I guess my family should not be honored any more. Yet somehow the sun continues to raise every morning.

 

[W. Richardson]

William, I'm not singling you out- but I want to address something I see a lot nowadays, and that's the dismissal of others' opinions as "PC", or "I'm Offended"- it's not much different than saying "Get over it" or "Grow thicker skin", and it doesn't actually address the problem or solve anything- and it certainly doesn't draw people on opposite sides together.

Thing is, although there are times when Political Correctness runs amok, the phrase is often used to denigrate a valid opinion: it may have been okay to refer to people by various slang terms- oftentimes slurs- but the fact it's no longer okay isn't because it's "PC", it's because it's the right thing to do. Same thing with "Being Offended"...when I say something that you find objectionable, you are perfectly within your right to tell me that. If I respect you (or I work for you), then I'll change my language; if not, I'll ignore you- but I'll be doing so deliberately this time, and any repercussions are on me. Free speech works both ways- we each get to express our opinion, including how that opinion makes us feel.

I bring this up because these two phrases crop up with alarming regularity in discourse nowadays, usually with people who want things to be "just as they were." Problem is, things aren't, and they won't be again, and we all need to accept that fact. I bring this up here because it's part of that "perception management" I keep harping on about- if the SCV and/or other pro-CSA groups hope to sway popular opinion, they need to control the message being delivered about all things Confederate; denigrating those with differing opinions won't do it.

Again, not targeted against any one person- just a pause for thought. What message are we sending when we communicate?

Hi Shadow,

I do not feel that you are singling me out at all. You addressed an issue that you feel is wrong and you are most certainly entitled to that. You mention it is the right thing to do, according to who ? The majority ?.......We do not know what the majority's view is, the politicians? could be, but does that make it right or do they have a political motivation? If you are saying that taking the flag down off government is the right thing to do I wholeheartedly agree.............If you feel it is the right thing to do to remove all Confederate monuments/memorials/statues.............I wholeheartedly disagree.

I have to call it they way I see it, just as some here seem to see that anyone that honors their Confederate Heritage must be a racist or does so out of hatred, which isn't the case all the time. Are they some who fly the CBF racist? Yes they are and I do not support them just as I do not support any racist. There are racist under the American Flag as well.

We all need a better understanding of all involved in this issue. I see a large percentage on all sides not wishing to understand or communicate. Tolerance, respect, and understanding is needed. This is America and it is filled with many different Americans, with their own history and heritage.

Respectfully,
William

 

[R. Alex Raines]

I don't find it anymore ridiculous than the witch hunt going on now to eradicate Confederate Heritage by some Confederatephobics..............

Did everyone get a voice in naming places before ? I can say NO they did not, but isn't this suppose to be a new time, a better time with new ways ? Aren't we suppose to be trying to come together? Work together? or we going to continue with ways that have failed? Some telling all what is to be.................Politicians have agendas and do not speak for all their constituents on all issues.

Would it be expensive? Yes I think so, but more expensive than removing 1,000's of monuments/memorials/statues because of some PC reasons or so called "I'm Offended"


View attachment 73702
Respectfully,
William

William,

With regard to your initial paragraph, it's an ad hominem or name calling or both. It's also factually incorrect.

The second paragraph amounts to special pleading, at a minimum.

The third paragraph is more ad hominem as well as moving the goalposts.

Substantively, your plan would require a vote to change the name of a park or a street or a building. Our discussion was about those. Addressing your original idea, the cost of renaming a street or a park or a building. The cost there is negligible compared to the costs of a referendum to change the name.

As for anything to do with monuments, how much does it cost to remove a monument? How much does a referendum in a school district, park district, or county/municipality cost?

Regards

 

[JerseyBart]

We're going to dial back the drama and nonsense or moderators will step in and make it so that no dramatics or nonsense gets through or no posts get through at all.

Posted as moderator.