After the flag

[CMWinkler]

The statue will be more easily forgotten, but I suppose that is not what you meant.
Whether a statute itself helps remember history is debatable. A statute certainly promotes a point of view; but is a point of view the same as history?

It can be interpreted to provide history. Remove it and there's nothing left to interpret.

 

[jgoodguy]

There's an old warning directed to those in positions of power which seems appropriate to the social changes we have seen in the last 50 years: Be good to people on your way up. You may meet them again on your way down.

The subset of society who erected these monuments and raised these flags just might be on the way down.

Might?

 

[jgoodguy]

The statue will be more easily forgotten, but I suppose that is not what you meant.
Whether a statute itself helps remember history is debatable. A statute certainly promotes a point of view; but is a point of view the same as history?

A lot of these fights are about statues that many if not most of the protestors would not be interested in without the protest.

 

[unionblue]

Besides, what will the pigeons do without these statues?

 

[nextcity]

Personally, I think Turner Ashby High School in Bridgewater, VA needs a name change.

Does anyone know if the Kentucky State Parks system is under attack for the Jefferson Davis Monument in Fairview Kentucky?

 

[Al Murray]

I think the better question is why is something named Jackson

Yeah, Jackson was a bad choice for my point. You are right about different reasons, and I was thinking Andrew and not Stonewall. My point might better be made by reference to a community near here named Walkersville. It was originally "Bennett's Mills" after the pioneer, but in the Antebellum period they changed it to honor Walker the filibusterer. I don't know if there is a monument or not. But I doubt the "take it down" crowd will notice. People can argue and protest and be mad at each other for six months (or until the next "thing" pushes it off the TV) all they want to, but they can't possibly get them all.

 

[jgoodguy]

Besides, what will the pigeons do without these statues?

Some friends and I were eating together yesterday they were fussing about the problem and I told them they needed to get a heritage law for Alabama and that other states had similar laws. It was asked if the laws dated from the 50-60s. I say not, they dated when some black community wanted to change things and the State legislature shut them down. The table was quiet after that.

 

[jgoodguy]

Yeah, Jackson was a bad choice for my point. You are right about different reasons, and I was thinking Andrew and not Stonewall. My point might better be made by reference to a community near here named Walkersville. It was originally "Bennett's Mills" after the pioneer, but in the Antebellum period they changed it to honor Walker the filibusterer. I don't know if there is a monument or not. But I doubt the "take it down" crowd will notice. People can argue and protest and be mad at each other for six months (or until the next "thing" pushes it off the TV) all they want to, but they can't possibly get them all.

You can bet the monuments that will be targeted will be in areas of high concentrations of black folks that white folks figure for some reason or another that the black folks should appreciate and take care of.

 

[K Hale]

Might?

I'm trying to be gentle...

 

[distantinlaw]

ive got an idea for a new race card , rebel flag on one side and MLKjr on the other , depending on what your mood is just toss the race card !!!

 

[Henry Whitworth]

A lot of these fights are about statues that many if not most of the protestors would not be interested in without the protest.

But, of course, that's exactly what protests are for; to draw attention to things. And if these things are only ok in obscurity, are they really ok?

Seems like most of us wish there was more awareness of the Civil War era but when the wider culture starts paying attention, the results aren't really so comfortable for much of the enthusiast crowd. I notice a lot of people speaking hopefully here about "when this blows over" and "when people stop paying attention," as though that's the way it should be.

 

[jgoodguy]

ive got an idea for a new race card , rebel flag on one side and MLKjr on the other , depending on what your mood is just toss the race card !!!

Get real.

 

[dlavin]

well Robert E Lee park in Baltimore had its name changed.

 

[Mild53]

Some have, yes, used the flag for that purpose, though to the extent you suggest, I'm not really sure. Was there a CBF from every flagpole everywhere throughout the South to intimidate blacks? I don't believe so.



No, it went up in 1961, as I understand it for the centennial.



If your presumption is true, that could be a purpose, yes.



After a hateful senseless shooting, because the killer had photos taken with Confederate flags, the focus was turned from the hard business of dealing with hatred and violence to attacking an inanimate object which had nothing whatsoever to do with the crime. You are though perfectly entitled to your opinion regardless of whether I consider it to be erroneous.



Oh, I wasn't surprised. The first photo I saw of his car, I knew that the flag would be attacked even though it had nothing whatsoever to do with the crime.



On that we can agree.

Of course you are correct, the CBF did not fly on top of the SC Statehouse until 1861. The use of the CBF as a symbol of defiance began in the 1950's though. I will stand on my statement about its purpose. Its use by Strom Thurmond was clearly to make it a symbol of resistance to the civil rights movement.

There is an interesting site on flag symbolism in general and on symbolism of the confederate flag specificaly, at website of a top southern University, The University of Virginia.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~class/am483_97/projects/sarratt/intro.html

An excerpt.

"With the coming of the Civil Rights movement came the beginnings of the controversy surrounding the flag which we know today. White Southerners believed that their exclusive culture was being threatened, and the flag became a symbol against civil rights. The segregationist Dixiecrat party of 1948, who ran Strom Thurmond for president, took on the Confederate flag as its symbol. Anti-Civil Rights sentiment ran strong in the South, which was once again feeling imposed upon by a distant federal government."

You can find this explantion of the orgin of the modern use of the flag corraborated by many respected historians.

Suggesting that modern use of the CBF can be innocously traced to the CW "Centennial" is silly in face of the facts.

 

[Mild53]

There's an old warning directed to those in positions of power which seems appropriate to the social changes we have seen in the last 50 years: Be good to people on your way up. You may meet them again on your way down.

The subset of society who erected these monuments and raised these flags just might be on the way down.

It has taken 150 years, but it has happend. As prophesized in the Bible, "the last shall be first."

 

[samuel orris]

You ain't just whistlin' Dixie. Oh wait, guess you won't be able to. Wait till Johnny comes marching home, oops, that'll be gone too.

 

[W. Richardson]

The statue will be more easily forgotten, but I suppose that is not what you meant.
Whether a statute itself helps remember history is debatable. A statute certainly promotes a point of view; but is a point of view the same as history?

I understand your opinion as to statues, monuments, and memorials. So you would be fine with all being removed?

Respectfully,
William

 

[CMWinkler]

Of course you are correct, the CBF did not fly on top of the SC Statehouse until 1861. The use of the CBF as a symbol of defiance began in the 1950's though. I will stand on my statement about its purpose. Its use by Strom Thurmond was clearly to make it a symbol of resistance to the civil rights movement.

There is an interesting site on flag symbolism in general and on symbolism of the confederate flag specificaly, at website of a top southern University, The University of Virginia.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~class/am483_97/projects/sarratt/intro.html

An excerpt.

"With the coming of the Civil Rights movement came the beginnings of the controversy surrounding the flag which we know today. White Southerners believed that their exclusive culture was being threatened, and the flag became a symbol against civil rights. The segregationist Dixiecrat party of 1948, who ran Strom Thurmond for president, took on the Confederate flag as its symbol. Anti-Civil Rights sentiment ran strong in the South, which was once again feeling imposed upon by a distant federal government."

You can find this explantion of the orgin of the modern use of the flag corraborated by many respected historians.

Suggesting that modern use of the CBF can be innocously traced to the CW "Centennial" is silly in face of the facts.

Since I didn't suggest that, I have no problem. We weren't talking about when the Dixiecrats and their usurpation of the flag for political purposes (a move denounced by the UDC but not the SCV) and its use by them from the 1948 campaign. I'll be happy to talk about if you want, but that was not our discussion. You asserted the flag went up on the State House in the 50s for a specific purpose and I pointed out you were in error. A later poster supplied the record supporting my position. When you point out a specific event and attempt to use it to prove a larger point and you are in error about that event, it undermines your larger point.

Please tell me if you want to discuss the Dixiecrats and their misuse, for political purposes, the rectangular version of the CBF.

 

[NedBaldwin]

I understand your opinion as to statues, monuments, and memorials. So you would be fine with all being removed?

'fine' is such a soft, ambivalent term. And 'all' is overly broad.
I would be happy if some things were removed/changed.
I dont care about some other things
and there are some that I see a value in so i wouldnt support changing.

 

[NedBaldwin]

... usurpation of the flag for political purposes ... .... misuse, for political purposes ...

Thi seems a common refrain -- that the flag is misused or hijacked. But why is it misuse?