A S Johnston and Kentucky

[atlantis]

AS Johnston deployed into Kentucky why did he not go deeper into the Commonwealth? Was it possible for him to have reached Louisville.

 

[Rhea Cole]

AS Johnston deployed into Kentucky why did he not go deeper into the Commonwealth? Was it possible for him to have reached Louisville.

Johnston was ordered to defend the northern border of Tennessee, not invade Kentucky.

 

[jackt62]

He barely had enough men and resources for a capable defense, let alone conduct offensive operations.

 

[atlantis]

Johnston was ordered to defend the northern border of Tennessee, not invade Kentucky.

But he ended up in Kentucky.

 

[atlantis]

He barely had enough men and resources for a capable defense, let alone conduct offensive operations.

He wasn't going to get men, resources by sitting in Tennessee. As a native of Kentucky, he was best suited to recruit men and resources from his fellow Kentuckians.

 

[Rhea Cole]

He wasn't going to get men, resources by sitting in Tennessee. As a native of Kentucky, he was best suited to recruit men and resources from his fellow Kentuckians.

That is what Morgan told Bragg who carried fifteen wagon loads of muskets & traps with him to arm the recruits that would flock to the colors. Less than 20 individuals did. The profound misconception of what the true sentiments in Kentucky were distorted CSA strategy. Numerous books, studies & articles have done detailed autopsies on the paucity of Confederate sentiments in Kentucky.

64,000 KY men joined the Union army. 25,000 joined the Confederate army, of whom a shocking 19,226 became casualties. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

[Nathan Towne]

That is what Morgan told Bragg. He carried fifteen wagon loads of muskets & traps with him to arm the recruits that would flock to the colors. Less than 20 individuals did. The profound misconception of what the true sentiments in Kentucky were distorted CSA strategy. Numerous books, studies & articles have done detailed autopsies on the paucity of Confederate sentiments in Kentucky.

64,000 KY men joined the Union army. 25,000 joined the Confederate army, of whom a shocking 19,226 became casualties. The numbers speak for themselves.

Sources please.

 

[Jamieva]

He wasn't going to get men, resources by sitting in Tennessee. As a native of Kentucky, he was best suited to recruit men and resources from his fellow Kentuckians.

How did that work for Bragg?

 

[archieclement]

That is what Morgan told Bragg who carried fifteen wagon loads of muskets & traps with him to arm the recruits that would flock to the colors. Less than 20 individuals did. The profound misconception of what the true sentiments in Kentucky were distorted CSA strategy. Numerous books, studies & articles have done detailed autopsies on the paucity of Confederate sentiments in Kentucky.

64,000 KY men joined the Union army. 25,000 joined the Confederate army, of whom a shocking 19,226 became casualties. The numbers speak for themselves.

Well to be fair, in a state with mixed sentiment, the side that controls it the most should get the most recruits, as they don't have to abandon their homes to enlist. As well physical control allows draft/conscription to inflate recruits.

As well your 64,000 for the Union would show very lukewarm Union support, as Missouri a state with a similar population provided almost twice that, while the Union authorities constantly complained the majority of Missouri was pro south.......so Kentucky must have been much more so to have half as many volunteers.....

 

[Sheltowee]

That is what Morgan told Bragg who carried fifteen wagon loads of muskets & traps with him to arm the recruits that would flock to the colors. Less than 20 individuals did. The profound misconception of what the true sentiments in Kentucky were distorted CSA strategy. Numerous books, studies & articles have done detailed autopsies on the paucity of Confederate sentiments in Kentucky.

64,000 KY men joined the Union army. 25,000 joined the Confederate army, of whom a shocking 19,226 became casualties. The numbers speak for themselves.

The recruiting efforts were indeed a dismal failure. But "less than 20"?

I know I read recently- maybe Noe or Hafendorfer?- that a regiment of cavalry was raised, during the Kentucky Campaign.

Besides a general lack of motivation, some of Bragg's disappointment may have been due to his efforts to recruit infantry? The cavalry service was far more appealing to the Kentucky boys.

 

[Rhea Cole]

The recruiting efforts were indeed a dismal failure. But "less than 20"?

I know I read recently- maybe Noe or Hafendorfer?- that a regiment of cavalry was raised, during the Kentucky Campaign.

Besides a general lack of motivation, some of Bragg's disappointment may have been due to his efforts to recruit infantry? The cavalry service was far more appealing to the Kentucky boys.

I am not depending on my memory. The boys who showed up at Bragg's HQ wanted to be Morgan's men. Morgan had, in his characteristically egocentric manner, mistaken his personal popularity for enthusiasm for secession. Bragg was furious. He made it very clear that if the people of Kentucky were unwilling to fight for their independence, he was not going fight for them on his own. Bragg's notorious hostility toward Kentucky troops dates from then.

If these Kentucky cavalry existed, what was their designation?

 

[Sheltowee]

I am not depending on my memory. The boys who showed up at Bragg's HQ wanted to be Morgan's men. Morgan had, in his characteristically egocentric manner, mistaken his personal popularity for enthusiasm for secession. Bragg was furious. He made it very clear that if the people of Kentucky were unwilling to fight for their independence, he was not going fight for them on his own. Bragg's notorious hostility toward Kentucky troops dates from then.

If these Kentucky cavalry existed, what was their designation?

On Sept. 29 1862, Bragg wrote Samuel Cooper- "We have so far received no accession to this army. General Smith has secured about a brigade- not half our losses by casualties by different kinds. Unless a change occurs soon, we must abandon the garden spot of Kentucky to its cupidity." (OR, Ser.1, Vol. XVI, pt.2, 876).

Another figure given by Steven Bernstein in his article "Kentucky in the Civil War, 1861-1862" for the Essential Civil War Curriculum (https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/kentucky-in-the-civil-war-1861-1862.html) puts the Confederate enlistment at about 2500. He cites no source.

But yes- far less than the 25-30,000 that Morgan promised. As Kirby Smith remarked to his wife- "Their hearts are evidently with us, but their bluegrass and fat cattle are against us".

 

[atlantis]

I am not depending on my memory. The boys who showed up at Bragg's HQ wanted to be Morgan's men. Morgan had, in his characteristically egocentric manner, mistaken his personal popularity for enthusiasm for secession. Bragg was furious. He made it very clear that if the people of Kentucky were unwilling to fight for their independence, he was not going fight for them on his own. Bragg's notorious hostility toward Kentucky troops dates from then.

If these Kentucky cavalry existed, what was their designation?

My main point is that once he entered Kentucky he should have pushed as deep into the state as possible. If Bragg could make it to Frankfort when union forces were much stronger than Johnston could have as well. Once you lose Tennessee you lose the war.

 

[Sheltowee]

I'm thinking that Johnston was guarding the waterways- the Mississippi, Cumberland, and Tennessee. A movement deep into Kentucky would have left these rivers wide open.

Crittenden/ Zollicoffer tried a push into eastern Kentucky- and were defeated at Mill Springs. Things quickly unraveled, at that point.

 

[atlantis]

I'm thinking that Johnston was guarding the waterways- the Mississippi, Cumberland, and Tennessee. A movement deep into Kentucky would have left these rivers wide open.

Crittenden/ Zollicoffer tried a push into eastern Kentucky- and were defeated at Mill Springs. Things quickly unraveled, at that point.

He had a difficult assignment no doubt. I wonder if he ever regretted resigning his US commission.

 

[Rhea Cole]

My main point is that once he entered Kentucky he should have pushed as deep into the state as possible. If Bragg could make it to Frankfort when union forces were much stronger than Johnston could have as well. Once you lose Tennessee you lose the war.

What was your Frankfort Force going to eat? When the passes into East Tennessee & Virginia froze up, there would be no help from the Deep South via Knoxville. It was an El Niño period, corn died before it was knee high. Pastures were stubble fields. Horses required 26 pounds of grain & hay / day. Where was that going to come from? Kirby Smith was forced to disperse his army over 100 square miles to forage enough to temporarily sustain his army. On the other hand, Cincinnati was the major center for meat processing & manufacturing. Logistics are everything.

 

[MarkZim]

I've always wondered why Kentucky was so divided. Tennessee was divided and at first voted against secession but then approved it after Lincoln issued his call for volunteers to invade the South. Kentucky was a slave state south of the Ohio. What gives? Of course, East Tennessee remained pro-Union during the war.

 

[Sheltowee]

I've always wondered why Kentucky was so divided. Tennessee was divided and at first voted against secession but then approved it after Lincoln issued his call for volunteers to invade the South. Kentucky was a slave state south of the Ohio. What gives? Of course, East Tennessee remained pro-Union during the war.

I think less connected to the plantation economy, than Tennessee. Kentucky was heavily invested in trade with the north. Financially- Kentucky desired a good relationship with those across the Ohio River.

Because of their strategic location, Kentuckians feared their state would become the principle battleground.

Lastly- due to Whig political history, the majority were pro-union. Whereas the Deep South were mostly Democrats.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I think less connected to the plantation economy, than Tennessee. Kentucky was heavily invested in trade with the north. Financially- Kentucky desired a good relationship with those across the Ohio River.

Because of their strategic location, Kentuckians feared their state would become the principle battleground.

Lastly- due to Whig political history, the majority were pro-union. Whereas the Deep South were mostly Democrats.

40% of Kentucky's agricultural exports was hemp. That is what made the great fortunes in the Bluegrass. Hemp production was protected by a 40% tariff on jute. Absent the tariff & enforcement of the fugitive slave laws across the Ohio River & slaveholding in Kentucky would have been wiped out.

 

[archieclement]

40% of Kentucky's agricultural exports was hemp. That is what made the great fortunes in the Bluegrass. Hemp production was protected by a 40% tariff on jute. Absent the tariff & enforcement of the fugitive slave laws across the Ohio River & slaveholding in Kentucky would have been wiped out.

Don't really see removal of a jute tariff replacing hemp demand. Hemp is 20% stronger then jute, as well more resistant to water as it doesn't shrink when wet. Why navies of the world preferred hemp, and it was still the age of sail militarily and commercially.

Would hold true to twine used to bale cotton........that then was going to be shipped by riverboat/sea as well.

If hemps primary use had been clothing perhaps, but it primary market was actually cordage/rope as it was the preferred and superior material for ropemaking.

And the enforcement of the FSL? Even today if your property crosses a state line, you do not somehow lose claim to it, or it cease to be yours........