A question

[RSMorris]

I am looking at a French Model 1822 Musket made in 1838. It was originally a flintlock smoothbore then later rifled and converted to percussion. The description said 147,000 of these were imported to the U.S. for the war effort. If they were brought over for the war would the rifling and percussion conversion have been done here in the U.S. or in France? If the rifling and percussion conversion were done here would there be some kind of proof marks or armory markings that would have been applied here? If the rifling/conversion were done in France would the U.S. government have just relied on the Fresh proof marks as being sufficient. Just trying to work out some history on this musket.

 

[Craig L Barry]

The US and CS did not import flintlocks from Europe to convert to percussion to my knowledge, there were plenty of older flintlock arms over here already. Buyers for both sides were primarily interested in modern military arms like the P53 Enfield and 1854 Austrian Rifle (Lorenz) but also imported a number of of older percussion and percussion conversion muskets. And my understanding is they drew the line with obsolete older arms like flintlocks.

 

[RSMorris]

The US and CS did not import flintlocks from Europe to convert to percussion to my knowledge, there were plenty of older flintlock arms over here already. Buyers for both sides were primarily interested in modern military arms like the P53 Enfield and 1854 Austrian Rifle (Lorenz) but also imported a number of of older percussion or percussion conversion muskets. And my understanding is they drew the line with obsolete arms like flintlocks.

So would this one have been converted there maybe, then imported? This dealer is very reputable and he goes on about this type being imported from France and Belgium.

 

[johan_steele]

They were generally converted in Liege. It must also be understood there was a busting surplus market here prior to the war.

The 147k imported I think references French pattern arms. Not the 1822.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

The Liege, Belgium companies could do it all - make new arms, remake old arms, whatever you wanted - you could "Have it Your Way, Have it Your Way" as the old hamburger chain slogan goes.
Leige makers did work for the British when need for arms outpaced the British ability to produce, and I am sure they did the same in our War

 

[RSMorris]

I am just wondering about this converted Model 1822 that was made in either France or Belgium in 1838. It apparently was converted overseas to rifling and percussion and then at some point and made its way over here. Just wondering if it would have been a good candidate to have been in the Civil War. It is a .71 caliber.

 

[SeaTurtle]

This dealer is very reputable and he goes on about this type being imported from France and Belgium.

Just a thought, but just because it's a French gun doesn't mean it has to have been imported direct from Europe. France still to this day has several territories in the Caribbean region (like Guadeloupe and Martinique), a lot closer to the USA than Europe. Perhaps some guns found their way into America via these French colonies?

I know that Confederate blockade runners were bringing all sorts of European-made goods, including arms, into the South via European colonies in the Caribbean.

 

[RSMorris]

Just a thought, but just because it's a French gun doesn't mean it has to have been imported direct from Europe. France still to this day has several territories in the Caribbean region (like Guadeloupe and Martinique), a lot closer to the USA than Europe. Perhaps some guns found their way into America via these French colonies?

I know that Confederate blockade runners were bringing all sorts of European-made goods, including arms, into the South via European colonies in the Caribbean.

I am just going by what the dealer ad states. Gathering info, you might say. This particular dealer has always been reliable in accurately stating what his inventory is. Just getting second opinions. Thank you for the info!

 

[bayonet]

The Liege, Belgium companies could do it all - make new arms, remake old arms, whatever you wanted - you could "Have it Your Way, Have it Your Way" as the old hamburger chain slogan goes.
Leige makers did work for the British when need for arms outpaced the British ability to produce, and I am sure they did the same in our War

Same during our Rev War. Britain couldn't make enough Brown Bess flintlock muskets so Liege, Belgium and the Netherlands made about 110,000 Short Land Pattern Brown Bess's. About 76,000 coming out of Liege.

 

[tankredi]

Could you post some pictures of the gun?
Stamps on the barrel and on the breechplug will tell if the conversion was made in France and, when exactly it was made and to which model the conversion was made (1822T or 1822T bis).

 

[RSMorris]

Could you post some pictures of the gun?
Stamps on the barrel and on the breechplug will tell if the conversion was made in France and, when exactly it was made and to which model the conversion was made (1822T or 1822T bis).

i will p.m. you the link..... it is all copyrighted....don't buy it out from under me now...
p.m. sent

 

[tankredi]

Thanks for the link.
The conversion is not of the French military type.
All the typical French inscriptions on the lock plate and the breechplug are absent.
The hammer is a of the Belgian type.

IMO a Belgian conversion of a Belgian m1777 musket (copy for the French musket), commercially rifled for export.
The sights got lost at a point.

 

[Old Soldier]

Was it even rifled? Many of the smoothbore barrels would not have taken any rifling as they were too thin - hence the lack of sights. I have seen some with rifling - for the last three inches before the muzzle!

 

[RSMorris]

Was it even rifled? Many of the smoothbore barrels would not have taken any rifling as they were too thin - hence the lack of sights. I have seen some with rifling - for the last three inches before the muzzle!

The ad says it is rifled....

 

[RSMorris]

Thanks for the link.
The conversion is not of the French military type.
All the typical French inscriptions on the lock plate and the breechplug are absent.
The hammer is a of the Belgian type.

IMO a Belgian conversion of a Belgian m1777 musket (copy for the French musket), commercially rifled for export.
The sights got lost at a point.

if I have this straight, it is a Belgian M1777 musket that is made for the commercial market and not a military musket. The ad states it is a M1822, so is that not true? I'm not taking any of this back to the seller, just need it for my own decision making if I want to pursue it. Any chance it would have been used in our Civil War or in any of the various battles in Europe in those days? What is with the eagle on the lock? If that is even an eagle.

 

[bayonet]

Thanks for the link.
The conversion is not of the French military type.
All the typical French inscriptions on the lock plate and the breechplug are absent.
The hammer is a of the Belgian type.

IMO a Belgian conversion of a Belgian m1777 musket (copy for the French musket), commercially rifled for export.
The sights got lost at a point.

The M1777 was smoothbore not rifled. Very few made it here during our Rev War and only by the French Troops from what I understand. It was a good Model used all the way up to Waterloo.

 

[tankredi]

The M1777 was smoothbore not rifled. ..

Same for the French 1777 and the French 1822.
The rifling was added after the conversion to the percussion system.

 

[RSMorris]

Let me see if I have this straight. This is a M1822 built in 1838 that was a later version of the M1816 that was a later version of the M1777. This one was converted sometime in the 1840's in France or Belgium to rifled and percussion. So, would this have been a military weapon or not?
seems kind of odd a civilian would have the upgrades made I think. Could this one have made its way to the U.S. for duty in the Civil War? Could this one have been used in Europe by the military? It looks very beat up. Also, it has a bayonet lug. Would that have been offfered on a musket for the civilian market?

 

[tankredi]

Let me see if I have this straight. This is a M1822 built in 1838 that was a later version of the M1816 that was a later version of the M1777. This one was converted sometime in the 1840's in France or Belgium to rifled and percussion. So, would this have been a military weapon or not?
seems kind of odd a civilian would have the upgrades made I think. Could this one have made its way to the U.S. for duty in the Civil War? Could this one have been used in Europe by the military? It looks very beat up. Also, it has a bayonet lug. Would that have been offfered on a musket for the civilian market?

This is a Belgian copy of a French M.1777 built around 1835ish. Later altered to percussion in Belgium for military purposes.
Later on commercially rifled for export (not for the civilian market).
So yes, this weapon may have been used in the Civil War.

 

[RSMorris]

This is a Belgian copy of a French M.1777, altered to percussion in Belgium for military purposes around 1835ish.
Later on commercially rifled for export (not for the civilian market).
So yes, this weapon may have been used in the Civil War.

Thank you very much.