A hint of a problem.

[ole]

We frequently hear that the North wanted to dominate the South so as to gain possession of the South's wealth. And it's usually an allegation. Can we get some evidence one way or another? Or is it a non-starter?

 

[diane]

That's something that seems to me would pose a problem for the non-slave holding North - the South's wealth was based on that institution and, in order to maintain and control that wealth, wouldn't the North then have to accept slavery all around? Perhaps I misunderstand the question, though. Do you mean very literally control Southern wealth, or simply benefit from it? If the latter, there would be no need as they were benefitting anyway.

 

[leftyhunter]

We frequently hear that the North wanted to dominate the South so as to gain possession of the South's wealth. And it's usually an allegation. Can we get some evidence one way or another? Or is it a non-starter?

Its fair to say post CW that the South enriched Northern dentists at the great expense of Union veterans when the children of said veterans drank Coca Cola and Pepsi the deadly duo of the South.
Leftyhunter

 

[brass napoleon]

We frequently hear that the North wanted to dominate the South so as to gain possession of the South's wealth. And it's usually an allegation. Can we get some evidence one way or another? Or is it a non-starter?

Well, shucks, I see your problem right there, ole. You're looking for evidence. Don't you know that you must believe?! Evidence, schmevidence. Have faith, ole, have faith in the depravity of American capitalism!

 

[tmh10]

There were greedy people then, just is there now. Politics could be a tool to get wealth, just as today. I personaly don't believe there was an organized plan by the north to strip the south of it's wealth, but do not preclude the possibility that certain individules or groups tried to pull strings to get into the pockets of wealthy southerners. I also believe those same miscreants would go after the wealth of a northerner if they saw a way to do it. People who are greedy are not interested in a cause unless they can benifit by it.

 

[kholland]

It was my understanding that the south was still an agricultural society. And the bulk of the wealth was in cotton and slaves. And wealth in slaves was a commodity not easily "cashed in" either financially or morally.

 

[ole]

So you're telling me that all the talk of subjugation and confiscation was a figment of someone's imagination? A plank in the secessionists' platform of secession propaganda?

 

[Barrycdog]

For Good and Evil: The Impact of Taxes on the Course of Civilization
By Charles Adams

http://books.google.com/books?id=YK...e dirty rotten taxes by charles adams&f=false

 

[ole]

Charles Adams?

 

[tmh10]

Charles Adams?

You know him, Ole. He is Uncle Fester's cousin.

 

[wilber6150]

We frequently hear that the North wanted to dominate the South so as to gain possession of the South's wealth. And it's usually an allegation. Can we get some evidence one way or another? Or is it a non-starter?

Hey don't let evidence get in the way of a good Evil Tyranical North theory...

 

[James B White]

So you're telling me that all the talk of subjugation and confiscation was a figment of someone's imagination? A plank in the secessionists' platform of secession propaganda?

Wait... that's something else entirely. There were Yankees who wanted to--and many more who actually did-- subjugate and confiscate southern property, starting with fringe abolitionists and culminating in millions of northern soldiers and citizens. That was no imagination--it really happened.

The OP was about gaining the possession of the south's wealth. I took that to mean gain it and keep it, not set it free, and I don't see much evidence or logic for that.

 

[cash]

For Good and Evil: The Impact of Taxes on the Course of Civilization
By Charles Adams

http://books.google.com/books?id=YKMhQYfkJ5UC&pg=PA508&lpg=PA508&dq=those dirty rotten taxes by charles adams&source=bl&ots=OI_DW2K3fN&sig=21_OsZabo1CSxKO9_WeYD2pwzQA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LmUfVM_7NPbCsASV7oGoDg&ved=0CCMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=those dirty rotten taxes by charles adams&f=false

If you want to be guaranteed to not know what actually happened, read Charles Adams.

 

[diane]

Well, we could just say the North got control of the South's wealth by winning the war and occupying the place for awhile. Send down the carpetbaggers! Actually, it seems to me everybody - especially Southerners who were washed up after the war - wanted to control the wealth in the West.

 

[tmh10]

Well, we could just say the North got control of the South's wealth by winning the war and occupying the place for awhile. Send down the carpetbaggers! Actually, it seems to me everybody - especially Southerners who were washed up after the war - wanted to control the wealth in the West.

Could be Diane, but we also have to look into the robber barons of the post war era.

The people here are listed in Josephson, Robber Barons or in the cited source,

• John Jacob Astor (real estate, fur) – New York
• Andrew Carnegie (steel) – Pittsburgh and New York
• William A. Clark (copper) – Butte, Montana[11]
• Jay Cooke (finance) – Philadelphia
• Charles Crocker (railroads) – California
• Daniel Drew (finance) – New York
• James Buchanan Duke (tobacco) – Durham, North Carolina
• Marshall Field (retail) – Chicago[12]
• James Fisk (finance) – New York
• Henry Morrison Flagler (railroads, oil) – New York and Florida[13]
• Henry Clay Frick (steel) – Pittsburgh and New York
• William Henry Gates (Technology) – Seattle[14]
• John Warne Gates (barbed wire, oil) – Texas[15]
• Jay Gould (railroads) – New York[16]
• Edward Henry Harriman (railroads) – New York[17]
• Charles T. Hinde (railroads, water transport, shipping, hotels) - Illinois, Missouri, Kentucky, California
• Mark Hopkins (railroads) – California
• Collis Potter Huntington (railroads) - California
• Koch Family (Oil and Industrials) - Kansas and New York[18]
• Andrew W. Mellon (finance, oil) - Pittsburgh
• J. P. Morgan (finance, industrial consolidation) – New York
• John Cleveland Osgood (coal mining, iron) - Colorado[19]
• Henry B. Plant (railroads) – Florida[20]
• John D. Rockefeller (oil) – Cleveland, New York
• Charles M. Schwab (steel) – Pittsburgh and New York
• Joseph Seligman (banking) – New York
• John D. Spreckels (water transport, railroads, sugar) – California
• Leland Stanford (railroads) - California
• Cornelius Vanderbilt (water transport, railroads) – New York[21]
• Charles Tyson Yerkes (street railroads) – Chicago[22]
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_(industrialist)

 

[diane]

Could be Diane, but we also have to look into the robber barons of the post war era.

The people here are listed in Josephson, Robber Barons or in the cited source,

• John Jacob Astor (real estate, fur) – New York
• Andrew Carnegie (steel) – Pittsburgh and New York
• William A. Clark (copper) – Butte, Montana[11]
• Jay Cooke (finance) – Philadelphia
• Charles Crocker (railroads) – California
• Daniel Drew (finance) – New York
• James Buchanan Duke (tobacco) – Durham, North Carolina
• Marshall Field (retail) – Chicago[12]
• James Fisk (finance) – New York
• Henry Morrison Flagler (railroads, oil) – New York and Florida[13]
• Henry Clay Frick (steel) – Pittsburgh and New York
• William Henry Gates (Technology) – Seattle[14]
• John Warne Gates (barbed wire, oil) – Texas[15]
• Jay Gould (railroads) – New York[16]
• Edward Henry Harriman (railroads) – New York[17]
• Charles T. Hinde (railroads, water transport, shipping, hotels) - Illinois, Missouri, Kentucky, California
• Mark Hopkins (railroads) – California
• Collis Potter Huntington (railroads) - California
• Koch Family (Oil and Industrials) - Kansas and New York[18]
• Andrew W. Mellon (finance, oil) - Pittsburgh
• J. P. Morgan (finance, industrial consolidation) – New York
• John Cleveland Osgood (coal mining, iron) - Colorado[19]
• Henry B. Plant (railroads) – Florida[20]
• John D. Rockefeller (oil) – Cleveland, New York
• Charles M. Schwab (steel) – Pittsburgh and New York
• Joseph Seligman (banking) – New York
• John D. Spreckels (water transport, railroads, sugar) – California
• Leland Stanford (railroads) - California
• Cornelius Vanderbilt (water transport, railroads) – New York[21]
• Charles Tyson Yerkes (street railroads) – Chicago[22]
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_(industrialist)

Yes, indeed that's a fine passel of Yankees there! Railroads and the stuff to build them out of, heading for California. They had the money after the war. Most of the Southerners went to farming in the Central Valley, or cowboying. Leland Stanford - Stanford University; Crocker and Spreckels - sugar towns on the Carquinez Straight that both were flattened during WWII when the ammo ship Port of Chicago blew up; still have a few Carnegie libraries... Almost all the barons had their fingers in California goodies and, rather conspicuously, avoided the South. (Pretty much skipped the Plains, too, come to that...!)

 

[tmh10]

Yes, indeed that's a fine passel of Yankees there! Railroads and the stuff to build them out of, heading for California. They had the money after the war. Most of the Southerners went to farming in the Central Valley, or cowboying. Leland Stanford - Stanford University; Crocker and Spreckels - sugar towns on the Carquinez Straight that both were flattened during WWII when the ammo ship Port of Chicago blew up; still have a few Carnegie libraries... Almost all the barons had their fingers in California goodies and, rather conspicuously, avoided the South. (Pretty much skipped the Plains, too, come to that...!)

You are spot on as is your custom, Diane. They were ruthless men. I think Ole's, point was pre war however and I did not intend to get off subject, but it is worth noting that the same type of figures were around pre war and took advantage of the situation post war. I agree with you that the west was the new place to exploit and they did so. The south was pretty much skinned post war for a while.

 

[diane]

You are spot on as is your custom, Diane. They were ruthless men. I think Ole's, point was pre war however and I did not intend to get off subject, but it is worth noting that the same type of figures were around pre war and took advantage of the situation post war. I agree with you that the west was the new place to exploit and they did so. The south was pretty much skinned post war for a while.

These same characters made a killing on war profits, too, so they had a sizable poke to begin with. Takes money to make money! Under the Grant administration, they made as much as they could - laws finally had to be enacted to put a stop to their greed. This is one thing Lincoln was worried about when he installed the military-corporation-government machine. Think he planned to dismantle it once the war was over but didn't get that chance. Anything that went on before that connection was small potatoes compared to what exploded after the shooting stopped.

 

[tmh10]

These same characters made a killing on war profits, too, so they had a sizable poke to begin with. Takes money to make money! Under the Grant administration, they made as much as they could - laws finally had to be enacted to put a stop to their greed. This is one thing Lincoln was worried about when he installed the military-corporation-government machine. Think he planned to dismantle it once the war was over but didn't get that chance. Anything that went on before that connection was small potatoes compared to what exploded after the shooting stopped.

Very true Diane. You remind me of the phrase "Age of Shoddy", refering to the bad products made during the war that the Union bought for the war effort that were of inferiour quality.

 

[Elennsar]

But it might be noted that with a lot more Northern men, it was in the best interests of the robber barons to suck from their wealth than to go into the South. Thus the New York Central and its contemporaries.

That's kinda relevant, isn't it?