What is this? 1862 Tower

[Mazama]

Hi everyone, I'm new! My father is getting older and is finally considering selling some of his gun collection. Some of it was said to be civil war era, (it was acquired from a very big Civil War fan fifty years ago) so we've been researching but have hit a dead end.

We've also got some newer rifles (Kentucky long rifle and a Danish Remington 1881) that I know are off topic to this forum, but if anyone knows of an appropriate place on the internet to ask for help with those, I'd really appreciate it.

Below are pictures of three bayonets , a sword and a Tower rifle stamped 1862. I think the markings along the top of the metal are interesting, as well as the carved initials. I was hoping someone might be able to help me understand at least the history (and maybe value) behind what we've got here.

If any further pictures are needed please let me know.

Thank you for your time!

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy. Some Enfield knowledgeable members should be able to help you some.

 

[iron bender]

Well used export 53 Enfield. I like it. Consider putting a dial caliper in the barrel. Looks like it (maybe) has been bored out to shotgun. OldSgt will be along soon enough. Better pics of the socket bayonets would be helpful, two of them appear to be 55 type bayonets but in post-war steel scabbards. Markings and dimensions help with the sockets bayonets. Definitely curious about the pre-war socket without the locking ring.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

The musket is a typical Birmingham made commercial P1853 type III Rifle-Musket. I would be worth looking at the area of the stock directly behind the rear trigger guard extension for small cartouche stamps.

The sword bayonet is an English second model P1856 saber bayonet for a P1856 or P1860/1 rifle. The only way to tell the difference will be by measuring the diameter of the muzzle ring.
The "old style" socket bayonet without a locking ring is a Prussian M1812 bayonet for the Model 1809 "Potsdam" musket.
The other two bayonets are US Model 1855 types.

 

[iron bender]

ahh rear notch. See it now on the non-lock ring bayonet. Good eyes

 

[OldSarge79]

As for the bayonets, are either or both of the 1855-types marked "US" on the blades? If not, do either fit completely on the musket?

Also check for anything stamped in the wood in front of the butt plate tang, even faintly.

 

[scooter748driver]

Welcome from the Fort Sumter and the Fredericksburg forums.

 

[Story]

@Mazama

Reference
We've also got some newer rifles (Kentucky long rifle and a Danish Remington 1881) that I know are off topic to this forum, but if anyone knows of an appropriate place on the internet to ask for help with those, I'd really appreciate it.

Try https://www.americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php and https://www.remingtonsociety.org/forums/

Also, if you look below this thread conversation at SIMILAR THREADS there are two others labeled 1862 TOWER. Reading those and others you might find using the search bar can answer questions you may not have thought to ask yet.

 

[bayonet]

Those letter markings that look to be carved on the butt stock and slash marks on the barrel are a good indication of American use. There would be hell to pay if any Brit Soldier did that to a government issued weapon. It could of been during during the war or after thou as a sign off ownership.

 

[OldSarge79]

Those letter markings that look to be carved on the butt stock and slash marks on the barrel are a good indication of American use. There would be hell to pay if any Brit Soldier did that to a government issued weapon. It could of been during during the war or after thou as a sign off ownership.

The markings are all commercial, nothing marked for British military use.

 

[Story]

The markings are all commercial, nothing marked for British military use.

pretty sure he was referring to the carvings in the stock. Maybe even the hashmarks on the barrel, forward of the nipple bolster.

 

[OldSarge79]

pretty sure he was referring to the carvings in the stock. Maybe even the hashmarks on the barrel, forward of the nipple bolster.

He was. My point was that the "official" markings themselves completely eliminate the gun from being British military.

 

[bayonet]

pretty sure he was referring to the carvings in the stock. Maybe even the hashmarks on the barrel, forward of the nipple bolster.

10-4

 

[Old Soldier]

A Pattern 1853 rifle from Birmingham. NOT issue (No V.R under the crown and no Crown /arrow on the lockplate) The barrel looks bored out , but it MAY be just clearing a rusty muzzle (I have a Lancaster oval-bore like that. First 4" is 20-bore but if you push a tight brush down it starts turning. Oval-bore is hard to spot visually!) The lines on the top of the barrel are post-production and I know of no American issue marks like them. Is it civil war? Look at the wood. Union acceptance cartouche are found mainly on the area opposite the lock - oval with initials in cursive. Confederate is harder to spot. There is no butt plate tang stamping so, again on the wood, usually just behind the brass trigger guard or further towards the butt plate. Photo if you find anything - as there are possibly British production inspection marks there too. Initials? You would have to trace the ownership as , like the lines on the barrel, that is very unofficial and post-production.

Bayonet. The saber (Yataghan) looks like a Pattern 1856 used on the two-band Enfield and the 'PDL' is for Peter Daniel Luneschoss of Solingen, Germany, where most were made. The socket bayonets may well be for a P53, but they are similar to many of that period, including the Sprinfield ones. Again, look for any stamps/marks on socket or top flat of the blade and photo.

 

[DoctorKingSchultz]

Hi everyone, I'm new! My father is getting older and is finally considering selling some of his gun collection. Some of it was said to be civil war era, (it was acquired from a very big Civil War fan fifty years ago) so we've been researching but have hit a dead end.

We've also got some newer rifles (Kentucky long rifle and a Danish Remington 1881) that I know are off topic to this forum, but if anyone knows of an appropriate place on the internet to ask for help with those, I'd really appreciate it.

Below are pictures of three bayonets , a sword and a Tower rifle stamped 1862. I think the markings along the top of the metal are interesting, as well as the carved initials. I was hoping someone might be able to help me understand at least the history (and maybe value) behind what we've got here.

If any further pictures are needed please let me know.

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Perhaps I missed something on the thread, no one's answered the original question from what I could see; "Tower 1862" Means it was held in stock at the Tower of London, and that piece was produced in 1862. That's how the manufacturing of guns worked for the British Army from the start of the 18th century to the 20th. The gun could be made up of components, all interchangeable (Thanks to Hall since the late 1810s with his breechloader) and they could all be years apart. Disassembled, these were kept at that ancient location until there was a need to assemble them.

 

[yulzari]

Perhaps I missed something on the thread, no one's answered the original question from what I could see; "Tower 1862" Means it was held in stock at the Tower of London, and that piece was produced in 1862. That's how the manufacturing of guns worked for the British Army from the start of the 18th century to the 20th. The gun could be made up of components, all interchangeable (Thanks to Hall since the late 1810s with his breechloader) and they could all be years apart. Disassembled, these were kept at that ancient location until there was a need to assemble them.

Tower means nothing other than it was made in Britain. This one never even saw the Tower. As a commercial rifle it was not made of interchangeable parts, although all the bits could be hand fitted together to make a complete rifle, and there are no visible marks of British military service so a purely commercial rifle sold either to the civilian market or to one of the sides in the American Difference of Opinion.

Yes in the panic to arm troops with the Pattern 1853 in the Crimean War the British government did order thousands of such from commercial makers but all those carried government inspectors marks and government proof marks. This shows neither in the photographs.

 

[bayonet]

or to one of the sides in the American Difference of Opinion.

I must say I have never heard it called that! Good one

 

[Old Soldier]

Perhaps I missed something on the thread, no one's answered the original question from what I could see; "Tower 1862" Means it was held in stock at the Tower of London, and that piece was produced in 1862. That's how the manufacturing of guns worked for the British Army from the start of the 18th century to the 20th. The gun could be made up of components, all interchangeable (Thanks to Hall since the late 1810s with his breechloader) and they could all be years apart. Disassembled, these were kept at that ancient location until there was a need to assemble them.

The Tower Armoury ceased to be a store for arms in 1841 whenthe store was burned to the ground. (Most P39 muskets which were stored there are now quite rare). The mark 'Tower' was originally used for any arms produced for that Tower armoury by civilian contract since there was no central goverment arms factory. This changed with the establishment of the Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield in 1815, although the contract system still in operation until 1858 when Enfield was fully up and running. The establishment of the Volunteer Rifleman movement, meant that there was a demand for military STYLE rifles, so they were still produced under the TOWER 'brand'. All TOWER means is that it was produced by a recognised consortium of civilian gunsmiths to contract and the Year of manufacture was also added. The British Army and government had NOTHING to do with this production as it would have violated their declaration of neutrality at the outbreak of the Civil War.

These civilian P53s were NOT held by the government, nor inspected by them and the interchangability of parts is questionable. None will bear acceptance marks. Having said that, the earlier production of the P53, used in the Crimea and immediately afterwards, the Type1 and Type 2 were withdrawn and downgraded as soon as enough of the Type 3 were available and are now quite rare. Most were sold out of service and marked profusely with the opposing arrow -X- on both butt and barrel. SOME few did find their way to the Confederacy, but these were bought on the civilian market.

The only factories producing components and rifle to pattern were RSAF Enfield and the London Armoury Company, who were the only approved sub-contractors. (LAC eventually produced weapons solely for the Confederacy, but declared bankruptcy in 1867). Some internal components of these contract rifles may bear inspectors marks but they would have been from stock - a result of earlier over-production.

The signs, other than TOWER, is first, the lack of V.R under the crown, as none of these weapons were produced for the Army (LAC continued this, however) another is no sign of the government acceptance mark on the lock plate. (down arrow under crown). The barrel will bear civilan proof marks NOT military proofs. (Sold out of Service headed for civilian markets will have civillian proofs addedand the military proof defaced.)

 

[DoctorKingSchultz]

The Tower Armoury ceased to be a store for arms in 1841 whenthe store was burned to the ground. (Most P39 muskets which were stored there are now quite rare). The mark 'Tower' was originally used for any arms produced for that Tower armoury by civilian contract since there was no central goverment arms factory. This changed with the establishment of the Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield in 1815, although the contract system still in operation until 1858 when Enfield was fully up and running. The establishment of the Volunteer Rifleman movement, meant that there was a demand for military STYLE rifles, so they were still produced under the TOWER 'brand'. All TOWER means is that it was produced by a recognised consortium of civilian gunsmiths to contract and the Year of manufacture was also added. The British Army and government had NOTHING to do with this production as it would have violated their declaration of neutrality at the outbreak of the Civil War.

These civilian P53s were NOT held by the government, nor inspected by them and the interchangability of parts is questionable. None will bear acceptance marks. Having said that, the earlier production of the P53, used in the Crimea and immediately afterwards, the Type1 and Type 2 were withdrawn and downgraded as soon as enough of the Type 3 were available and are now quite rare. Most were sold out of service and marked profusely with the opposing arrow -X- on both butt and barrel. SOME few did find their way to the Confederacy, but these were bought on the civilian market.

The only factories producing components and rifle to pattern were RSAF Enfield and the London Armoury Company, who were the only approved sub-contractors. (LAC eventually produced weapons solely for the Confederacy, but declared bankruptcy in 1867). Some internal components of these contract rifles may bear inspectors marks but they would have been from stock - a result of earlier over-production.

The signs, other than TOWER, is first, the lack of V.R under the crown, as none of these weapons were produced for the Army (LAC continued this, however) another is no sign of the government acceptance mark on the lock plate. (down arrow under crown). The barrel will bear civilan proof marks NOT military proofs. (Sold out of Service headed for civilian markets will have civillian proofs addedand the military proof defaced.)

Thank you for this important correction, will definitely remember and bookmark it. I had heard differently. Looking now, evidence confirms all that. Thank you very much.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

A Pattern 1853 rifle from Birmingham…..Is it civil war? Look at the wood. Union acceptance cartouche are found mainly on the area opposite the lock - oval with initials in cursive. Confederate is harder to spot.

Union acceptance or inspection marks are rare. I have studied these for decades and examined many hundreds in hand. I have never seen such a mark on the Pattern 1853 arm, although I have seen a hundred with confederate inspection or acceptance marks