Rosecrans and Thomas

[BillO]

I think the main reason Grant became the chosen one for Lincoln is simple, Grant is a fighter, stubborn and I think Lincoln understood by this time that the only way to victory was through killing. Throw enough men againist entrenchments and sooner or later the larger army will win if you have the will.

 

[Elennsar]

No one really tried that, though.

 

[OpnCoronet]

The saving grace of the AoP, was its ability to fight hard and no matter how badly hurt, it would come back for more. Like the ole bare-knule fights where the winner was determined when one opponent could no longer 'toe-the-mark' the AoP Always 'came up to the mark'.

 

[Elennsar]

A fight between the Army of Tennessee and the Army of the Potomac, in terms of sheer grit by the fighting man, would be rather interesting.

 

[kenjcruz]

Ole, I agree with your first paragraph completely but not the second, He was certainly aggresive but he has never struck me as a quick learner. His greatness lies primarily in the fact that he had the complete support of Lincoln and an apparently endless supply of manpower. No other union general would have politically survived after Spotsylvania without it.

It seems this thread has veered off a bit from Rosencrans and Thomas ... but I don't think it paints a complete picture to say Grant was great only because he had an endless supply of manpower.

Having a larger army clearly affected his strategy and tactics. But the detailed accounts of the Overland Campaign show Grant probing and shifting daily, looking for weak spots and an advantage - not just the big "shift left" moves.

In the Wilderness both Lee and Grant were on the offensive, and they fought to a stalemate. After that only Grant maintained the offensive, Lee was only able to react to Grant's moves. At this stage of the Civil War the offensive force always took more casualties.

 

[kenjcruz]

A fight between the Army of Tennessee and the Army of the Potomac, in terms of sheer grit by the fighting man, would be rather interesting.

The fight I think would be intestesting is the Army of the Tennessee (with Grant in charge) against the Army of Northern Virginia. Is there already a "what if ... " thread on this ?

 

[Elennsar]

The fight I think would be intestesting is the Army of the Tennessee (with Grant in charge) against the Army of Northern Virginia. Is there already a "what if ... " thread on this ?

Not that I know of.

 

[Old Bay]

A fight between the Army of Tennessee and the Army of the Potomac, in terms of sheer grit by the fighting man, would be rather interesting.

Maybe we should invoke Spike TV's 'Deadliest Warrior'?

 

[Elennsar]

I must confess to not knowing what that is.

 

[Old Bay]

You are the better for it, sir, in my opinion.

 

[ole]

Reminder. The theme of this thread is "Rosecrans and Thomas." Both were notable Commanders. Comparing either with McClellan is barely applicable. Neither was fast-acting, but when they felt they were ready they moved. Aggressively. No tippy-toeing like McClellan.

Both were solid, dependable commanders. Do you think Sherman would have left Thomas to deal with Hood if he didn't figure Thomas could handle it? They just weren't quick.

 

[BillO]

To kenjcruz: I didn't mean to imply that Grant was great because of manpower. I don't think of Grant as great. I think he was competant, maybe even pretty good but not great. My point was that Lincoln allowed him to do what was necessary to win and at any cost. Meade might have done as well if given the chance or possibly even Hooker.

 

[larry_cockerham]

Reminder. The theme of this thread is "Rosecrans and Thomas." Both were notable Commanders. Comparing either with McClellan is barely applicable. Neither was fast-acting, but when they felt they were ready they moved. Aggressively. No tippy-toeing like McClellan.

Both were solid, dependable commanders. Do you think Sherman would have left Thomas to deal with Hood if he didn't figure Thomas could handle it? They just weren't quick.

Had we been walking around on frozen snow in Nashville as Thomas was in early December 1864, we would have appeared slow as well. It's been a while, but I recall trying it. The world, yankee skiers and drivers included, come to a sometimes expensive halt around here when it freezes.

 

[larry_cockerham]

Thomas was much more severely 'tested' than Rosecrans. He (Thomas) had to organize 50-75,000 men while the world was watching. A once in a career shot. He planned it and pulled the trigger on his own terms. Flawless execution by a well-prepared army also added to his resume. Rosecrans was relegated to defending the lifeline railroad to supply Sherman's army. A stressful perhaps, but far less dangerous task than was faced by Thomas.

 

[larry_cockerham]

After the Confederate line broke on and around Shy's Hill, the Confederates began a hurried southward retreat. During the start of this pursuit Gen. James Harrison Wilson heard a voice in the darkness: "Then General Thomas's voice boomed: "Is that you, Wilson"?

" Wilson replied quickly, aware that the general's voice was high with excitement. Which was understandable, for Thomas had won a complete and precise victory. He had won in spite of criticism and doubt from his superiors. In fact, although Thomas would not learn the truth for some time, Grant's impatience had prompted him to dispatch another general to take command in Tennessee two days before the battle. At the last minute, Grant had even made preparations to go west and himself relieve Thomas. But those steps had proven unnecessary, and Thomas' deliberation and prudence -as well as Wilson's - had been vindicated once and for all.

Now, savoring his personal triumph, the usually reserved commander threw back his head and shouted into the night: "Dang it to hell, Wilson, didn't I tell you we could lick 'em"?"

[Taken from p188-189 Grant's Cavalryman. The Life and Wars of General James H. Wilson. Edward G. Longacre. Stackpole Books 1972 2000

 

[Elennsar]

Thomas may have been slow to get going (looking at other things, not just this campaign). But as the quoted text says, once he got going he hit like none other.

 

[johan_steele]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned was that Thomas largely had green troops against hardened veterans. W/ the exception of AJ Smith his command was almost completely green and that is a HUGE handicap. It's a testement of just how tough Smith's men were when they smashed Hoods Left to ribbons at Nashville while the Right managed quite a bit better.

 

[Dave Wilma]

I'm reading Grant's Reminiscences and have just gotten to Corinth where he complains about Rosecrans's refusal to follow orders. Grant says that he was tickled when Rosecrans was promoted because it saved him the trouble of having him relieved. Of course, Grant writes from the distance of twenty years, but he did not often criticize others by name. Following instructions is a pretty basic military skill.

I understand that "Pap" Thomas also did not measure up in Grant's eyes, but I haven't gotten to that part yet.

 

[Nytram01]

I think Rosecrans was sincere. Like McClellan, he saw the war through the lens of his own position, and found great difficulty in placing the national interests above the interests of his own command.

Strategic considerations had Washington doing everything they could to make sure Grant took Vicksburg. They wanted Rosecrans to pressure Bragg to keep him from detaching against Grant. Rosecrans refused.

Rosecrans waited until Bragg had dispatched 10,000 reinforcements to Joe Johnston, trying to build a relief force for Vicksburg. Tactically, this was very good for Rosecrans and his effort. As things worked out, those 10,000 were in transit during the Tullahoma Campaign, and did not arrive in Mississippi in time to take part in an effort to relieve Vicksburg.

In hindsight, it doesn't matter. But in real life, hindsight is what doesn't matter.

If Pemberton held on longer (a definite possibility to consider in June 1863) and Stevenson's 10,000 reinforced Johnston (they were en route) and Joe Johnston does attack successfully, disaster threatens Grant. That's what Lincoln, Stanton, Halleck, and Grant wanted to prevent. That's what Rosecrans refused to do anything about. Rosecrans was in the wrong, no matter what his local situation was, because he was unwilling to subordinate himself to higher command.

Regards,
Tim

Stevenson's 10,000 man division was sent to Pemberton in Mississippi before Murfreesboro/Stones River, it was a transfer Davis ordered that Johnston and Bragg did not support and which Johnston blamed for Bragg's failure to win that battle. The troops that were sent to Johnston's Army of Relief in the Vicksburg Campaign were Breckenridge's division, not Stevenson's.

 

[BillO]

Thomas was a democrat and a Virginian to boot so he was doubly suspect in the eyes of the administration. I don't have a clue what Rosecrans political views were.