- Joined
- Dec 3, 2011
- Location
- Laurinburg NC
Other than the occasional "stray Lost Causer" probably everybody.
"Certainly, I am devoted to the sentiment expressed in the bumper
sticker, Get your heart in Dixie or get your **s out!"
Eugene Genovese
-
Welcome to CivilWarTalk, a forum about the American Civil War! - Join today! It's fast, simple, and FREE!
Thaddeus Stevens
- Thread starter tmh10
- Start date
Other than the occasional "stray Lost Causer" probably everybody.
"Certainly, I am devoted to the sentiment expressed in the bumper
sticker, Get your heart in Dixie or get your **s out!"
Eugene Genovese
Hmm. Left out a few. Thomas Jefferson, David Thoreau, Martin Luther King, Jr. There was this other guy, Jesus Christ, who seemed to lean the same way. Maybe a few others ...
Tim
motorstreet
Private
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2013
- Location
- Allen, TX
I don't fear equality. However, the definition of equality can vary widely among the various political factions today and in the 1800s. It's dangerous because of this. Take, for instance, a heart surgeon and a cab driver. Should each be paid equally? Socialists might say yes while capitalists surely would say no.
damYankee
Captain
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
I believe if we were to pick at this scab we would boil it down to Negative Liberty vs. Positive Liberty, at the root of the political division in the US, what we refer to as Left vs Right, Conservitive vs Liberal is actually the difference between Negative and Positive Liberty.
This article can explain it better then I can,
http://tibormachan.rationalreview.com/2011/04/a-brief-on-negative-positive-liberty/
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2005
- Location
- Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
I am sure I speak for just about as many here as there were Confederate raiders that stopped and destroyed Yankee slave ships during the Civil War.
SIncerely,
Unionblue
matthew mckeon
Guest
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2005
We seem to have gotten far afield from Thaddeus Stevens. Don't understand the need for personal remarks. Don't want to hear any more.
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2005
- Location
- Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
Thaddeus Stevens, in his own words.
"I wished that I were the owner of every southern slave, that I might cast off the shackles from their limbs, and witness the rapture which would excite them in the first dance of their freedom."
--Statement at the Pennsylvania Constitutional Convention, July 1837, quoted in Thaddeus Stevens, Scourge of the South, 1959, by Fawn M. Brodie, pg. 63.
"I can never acknowledge the right of slavery. I will bow down to no deity however worshipped by professing Christians -- however dignified by the name of the Goddess of Liberty, whose footstool is the crushed necks of the groaning millions, and who rejoices in the resoundings of the tyrant's lash, and the cries of his tortured victims."
--Letter (4 May 1838), quoted in Shapers of the Great Debate on the Civil War: A Biographical Dictionary (2005), by Dan Monroe and Bruce Tap, pg. 255.
"It is said the South will never submit -- that we cannot conquer the rebels -- that they will suffer themselves to be slaughtered, and their whole country to be laid waste. Sir, war is a grievous thing at best, and civil war more than any other; but if they hold this language, and the means which they have suggested must be resorted to; if their whole country must be laid waste and made a desert, in order to save this Union from destruction, so let it be. I would rather, Sir, reduce them to a condition where their whole country is to be re-peopled by a band of freemen, than to see them perpetrate the destruction of this people through our agency. I do not say it is time to resort to such means, and I do not say that the time will come, but I never fear to express my sentiments. It is not a question with me of policy, but a question of principle."
--As quoted in Thaddeus Stevens: Commoner (1882), by E. B. Callender, Chap. VI, Heroic Epoch, pg. 113.
"There can be no fanatics in the cause of genuine liberty. Fanaticism is excessive zeal. There may be, and have been fanatics in false religion -- in the bloody religions of the heathen. There are fanatics in superstition. But there can be no fanatic, however warm their zeal, in the true religion, even although you sell your goods and bestow your money on the poor, and go on and follow your Master. There may, and every hour shows around me, fanatics in the cause of false liberty -- that infamous liberty which justifies human bondage, that liberty whose 'corner-stone is slavery.' But there can be no fanaticism however high the enthusiasm, in the cause of rational, universal liberty -- the liberty of the Declaration of Independence
-- June 10, 1850.
"The greatest measure of the nineteenth century was passed by corruption, aided and abetted by the purest man in America."
-- On the passage of the 13th Amendment, from the book, Thaddeus Stevens and the Fight For Negro Rights, by Milton Meltzer, pg. 159.
Unionblue
"I wished that I were the owner of every southern slave, that I might cast off the shackles from their limbs, and witness the rapture which would excite them in the first dance of their freedom."
--Statement at the Pennsylvania Constitutional Convention, July 1837, quoted in Thaddeus Stevens, Scourge of the South, 1959, by Fawn M. Brodie, pg. 63.
"I can never acknowledge the right of slavery. I will bow down to no deity however worshipped by professing Christians -- however dignified by the name of the Goddess of Liberty, whose footstool is the crushed necks of the groaning millions, and who rejoices in the resoundings of the tyrant's lash, and the cries of his tortured victims."
--Letter (4 May 1838), quoted in Shapers of the Great Debate on the Civil War: A Biographical Dictionary (2005), by Dan Monroe and Bruce Tap, pg. 255.
"It is said the South will never submit -- that we cannot conquer the rebels -- that they will suffer themselves to be slaughtered, and their whole country to be laid waste. Sir, war is a grievous thing at best, and civil war more than any other; but if they hold this language, and the means which they have suggested must be resorted to; if their whole country must be laid waste and made a desert, in order to save this Union from destruction, so let it be. I would rather, Sir, reduce them to a condition where their whole country is to be re-peopled by a band of freemen, than to see them perpetrate the destruction of this people through our agency. I do not say it is time to resort to such means, and I do not say that the time will come, but I never fear to express my sentiments. It is not a question with me of policy, but a question of principle."
--As quoted in Thaddeus Stevens: Commoner (1882), by E. B. Callender, Chap. VI, Heroic Epoch, pg. 113.
"There can be no fanatics in the cause of genuine liberty. Fanaticism is excessive zeal. There may be, and have been fanatics in false religion -- in the bloody religions of the heathen. There are fanatics in superstition. But there can be no fanatic, however warm their zeal, in the true religion, even although you sell your goods and bestow your money on the poor, and go on and follow your Master. There may, and every hour shows around me, fanatics in the cause of false liberty -- that infamous liberty which justifies human bondage, that liberty whose 'corner-stone is slavery.' But there can be no fanaticism however high the enthusiasm, in the cause of rational, universal liberty -- the liberty of the Declaration of Independence
-- June 10, 1850.
"The greatest measure of the nineteenth century was passed by corruption, aided and abetted by the purest man in America."
-- On the passage of the 13th Amendment, from the book, Thaddeus Stevens and the Fight For Negro Rights, by Milton Meltzer, pg. 159.
Unionblue
Fancy names for Daddy Liberty and Mommy Liberty.
damYankee
Captain
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
I see you are a deep thinker.
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2005
- Location
- Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
More Thaddeus Stevens in his own words:
(ALL TEACHERS, TAKE NOTE!!!)
From the Public School speech of April 11, 1835, which turned back an attempt to repeal public education in Pennsylvania:
"Such a law should be entitled 'An act for branding and marking the poor, so that they may be know from the rich and the proud."
"He cheerfully pays the tax which is necessary to support and punish convicts, but loudly complains of that which goes to prevent this fellow from becoming criminals, and to obviate the necessity of the humiliating institution."
"Sir, when I reflect how apt hereditary wealth, hereditary influence, and, perhaps, as a consequence, hereditary pride are to close the avenues and steel the heart against the wants and the rights of the poor, I am induced to thank my Creator for having, from early life, bestowed upon me the blessing of poverty. Sir, it is a blessing -- for if there be any human sensation more ethereal and divine than all others, it is that feelingly sympathizes with misfortune."
And on another educational note:
"Let demagogues note it for future use, and send it on the wings of the wind to the ears of every one of my constituents, in matters of this kind, I would rather hear the approving voice of one judicious intelligent, and enlightened mind, than be greeted by the loud huzzas of the whole host of ignorance."
-- February 1834, when he supported granting $18,000 to Pennsylvania College, which is now Gettysburg College.
Unionblue
(ALL TEACHERS, TAKE NOTE!!!)
From the Public School speech of April 11, 1835, which turned back an attempt to repeal public education in Pennsylvania:
"Such a law should be entitled 'An act for branding and marking the poor, so that they may be know from the rich and the proud."
"He cheerfully pays the tax which is necessary to support and punish convicts, but loudly complains of that which goes to prevent this fellow from becoming criminals, and to obviate the necessity of the humiliating institution."
"Sir, when I reflect how apt hereditary wealth, hereditary influence, and, perhaps, as a consequence, hereditary pride are to close the avenues and steel the heart against the wants and the rights of the poor, I am induced to thank my Creator for having, from early life, bestowed upon me the blessing of poverty. Sir, it is a blessing -- for if there be any human sensation more ethereal and divine than all others, it is that feelingly sympathizes with misfortune."
And on another educational note:
"Let demagogues note it for future use, and send it on the wings of the wind to the ears of every one of my constituents, in matters of this kind, I would rather hear the approving voice of one judicious intelligent, and enlightened mind, than be greeted by the loud huzzas of the whole host of ignorance."
-- February 1834, when he supported granting $18,000 to Pennsylvania College, which is now Gettysburg College.
Unionblue
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2005
- Location
- Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
diane,
Thought you might be insterested in this Stevens quote:
"I wish the Indians had newspapers of their own. If they had, you would have horrible pictures of the cold-blooded murders of inoffensive Indians. You would have more terrible pictures than we have now revealed to us [of white people], and, I have no doubt, we would have the real reasons for these Indian troubles. I suppose they would be as accurate as those you have in the letters which have just been read, and which have come in here so opportunely."
-- April 19, 1860.
Unionblue
Thought you might be insterested in this Stevens quote:
"I wish the Indians had newspapers of their own. If they had, you would have horrible pictures of the cold-blooded murders of inoffensive Indians. You would have more terrible pictures than we have now revealed to us [of white people], and, I have no doubt, we would have the real reasons for these Indian troubles. I suppose they would be as accurate as those you have in the letters which have just been read, and which have come in here so opportunely."
-- April 19, 1860.
Unionblue
Very
But it was a convoluted way of saying one camp believes liberty should be a group project, the other saying it means you should be left alone. At the extremes it's Commies on the Left and Survivalists on the Right. Those nutjobs get watered down by rational and practical thought into Democrats and Republicans, the Mommy Party and the Daddy Party. The Mommy 'I feel your pain' Party is in control now but has begun to overstep and the pendulum will swing the other way.
JPK Huson 1863
Brev. Brig. Gen'l
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2012
- Location
- Central Pennsylvania
Modern politics, shush please or the thread will be chopped. I'm not a moderator of course, I just like Thaddeu Stevens a ton and Unionblue is posting some stuff I've never come across before. It's quite splendid, thank you!
He was wierdly advanced in his thinking for the time, this fascinates me in the extreme. What further fascinates me is that he had to be sitting on some hidden ground-swell of popular support, citizens who either believed similarly from the outset or were willing to be enlightened because they saw his train of thought as well, enlightening. It's part of something which has always bugged me, how the mindsets were on a path to change then POOF, were set back terribly to the point where MLK was required at ALL, as a Civil Rights leader. Like the dark ages in Europe, where did all the progress go? For Thaddeus Stevens to exist at all, people had to exist behind him, citizens, a LOT of them, to whom he gave a voice. This is what I find fascinating.
Also please excuse if I was taking part in not-cool posting, I don't think I was even aware of taking personal jabs, isn't that terrible? Wowza. Maybe we should have something like they have at grocery stores, which is so annoying, the machine asks you 20 times when you swipe your card, 'are you SURE this amount is ok, what's your blood type and your mother's maiden name', before it accepts the fact that yes, yes indeed you do wish to purchase the jar of peanut butter. If we have to be SURE, yes indeed we want to say that, maybe will have to think twice.
p.s. I can't always count to 10 this early, I can manage 5. I just don't think it's necessary to sound hostile about some of these figures, you know? Someone who admires Thaddeus Stevens isn't going to change their minds because someone else has another opinion on the man, and the converse is true. I think where we all get into trouble is being annoyed with each other for even HAVING another opinion. It'd be a pretty boring world, all of us walking around, yep, yep, agreeing with each other, thinking exactly the same thing.
He was wierdly advanced in his thinking for the time, this fascinates me in the extreme. What further fascinates me is that he had to be sitting on some hidden ground-swell of popular support, citizens who either believed similarly from the outset or were willing to be enlightened because they saw his train of thought as well, enlightening. It's part of something which has always bugged me, how the mindsets were on a path to change then POOF, were set back terribly to the point where MLK was required at ALL, as a Civil Rights leader. Like the dark ages in Europe, where did all the progress go? For Thaddeus Stevens to exist at all, people had to exist behind him, citizens, a LOT of them, to whom he gave a voice. This is what I find fascinating.
Also please excuse if I was taking part in not-cool posting, I don't think I was even aware of taking personal jabs, isn't that terrible? Wowza. Maybe we should have something like they have at grocery stores, which is so annoying, the machine asks you 20 times when you swipe your card, 'are you SURE this amount is ok, what's your blood type and your mother's maiden name', before it accepts the fact that yes, yes indeed you do wish to purchase the jar of peanut butter. If we have to be SURE, yes indeed we want to say that, maybe will have to think twice.
p.s. I can't always count to 10 this early, I can manage 5. I just don't think it's necessary to sound hostile about some of these figures, you know? Someone who admires Thaddeus Stevens isn't going to change their minds because someone else has another opinion on the man, and the converse is true. I think where we all get into trouble is being annoyed with each other for even HAVING another opinion. It'd be a pretty boring world, all of us walking around, yep, yep, agreeing with each other, thinking exactly the same thing.
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2005
- Location
- Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
damYankee,
So which is Thaddeus Stevens? An advocate of positive or negative liberty?
damYankee
Captain
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2005
- Location
- Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
damYankee,
Can positive liberty be limited in its scope and application?
Stevens wanted to severely limit positive liberty when he wished to take property and wealth from the citizens of the former Confederacy and use such to empower former slaves.
Is this not denying the opportunity of the reunited southern whites to positive liberty?
Unionblue
damYankee
Captain
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
If you want to question McPherson, be my guest. IMO the USA was founded on the idea that we would restrict radical swings one way or the other. If Stevens favored the use of federal power to free slaves, that was an act of positive liberty.damYankee,
Can positive liberty be limited in its scope and application?
Stevens wanted to severely limit positive liberty when he wished to take property and wealth from the citizens of the former Confederacy and use such to empower former slaves.
Is this not denying the opportunity of the reunited southern whites to positive liberty?
Unionblue
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2005
- Location
- Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
damYankee,
Yet why does Stevens come across as so vengeful, so negative when concerning the former liberty of white Southerners vs. former black slaves? Many in the South then (and now) consider him downright evil for the extremes he advocated for reconstruction. Should he be considered such?
Unionblue
damYankee
Captain
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
Was he any more vengeful then the firebreathers of the South were, and still are today? He was a product of his time no less then any Rebel die hard. We forget that many on bothsides believed God was on their side, they saw themselves as the sword of God. Looking at him from our time he is very radical, but he was a purring kitten compared to others.
Similar threads
Similar threads
- Learn About Us
- ►About CivilWarTalk
- ►Contact the Webmaster
- ►Meet the Staff
- ►Link to CivilWarTalk
- Join Our Community
- ►Register
- ►Browse Forums
- ►View Today's Discussions
- ►Search the Forum
- Get Help
- ►FAQ
- ►Student Guide
- ►Forum Rules & Etiquette
- ►Copyright / DMCA
Bringing the