Thaddeus Stevens

[JPK Huson 1863]

Hee, oh my gosh, dam Yankee, to be truly honest, I wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote that! Too funny. I'd taken a swipe at Battalion ( who er, can hold his own.... ) , got told about it, paid for it regardless and probably should have, then saw the pick pick pick on the rest of the thread. I'd read your theory, wasn't going to deal with philosophy this early so kind of skipped it. I DID know if it devolved too far the thread would be sent to pertified thread heaven, that's all. Thaddeus Steven was a cantankerous, unreasonable, beyond stubborn brilliantly progressive thinker. I'd hate to lose a thread because he still attracts the same knee-jerk defensively close minded hatred that he did 150 years ago. It would kind of mean the dark ages are still with us.

I'll tell you what's so funny but true in the movie, is the invective used in Congress, right out on the floor, by these men. GOSH they were allowed an awful lot of leeway, geesh! If there'd been a moderator there, they'd have shut down Congress, those men were perfectly vile to each other! In the movie ' Lincoln ', which is meant to be really accurate with this stuff, Stevens hauls off and glues the most dreadfull, personally offensive broadsides together aimed at opponants, but boy, it's not as if the recipient is defenseless. Noooooo, he was just better at it than the other guy, that's all. I just know I'd have been a babbling mess if I'd met the man, hoping I did not attract any of that but boy, I'd have voted for him knowing the rights of the most helpless and vulnerable citizens of this greatest country in the world were in capable hands. That is believing in equality, which I do. Born a minister's kid, always a minister's kid. Witch at me all anyone wants, I'm afraid that isn't going to change.

 

[damYankee]

It is my opinion that these issues go much deeper then we can imagine. We think it is as simple as slavery and anti slavery, north vs. south, but that is the easy out.
The leaders of both sides felt a heavy burden to the concepts of the founders. Lee spoke of it in his letters. Davis wrote of it as did Lincoln and Stevens, each one viewing themselves as carrying on the ideals of the founders, and carrying out the principles of the Constitution which had for generations been ignored.
When we look at these men, Stevens, Brown, Davis, we must also remember the words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, had been twisted in such away as to be a way to withhold freedom from some people based on class and color.
When we read letters and correspondence of the founders we see that most of them including Washington felt that the issue of slavery had been postponed, left over for the next generation to decide it's fate.
And so it was. And that generation put it off, and so on, and with each generation the issue became more inflammatory, each side produced men like Stevens, filled with self righteous indignation and hate for the other side.
We could take a lesson from that history, but I fear it would be to close to current events, even though it is a tradition that goes back to the very men who wrote and signed our founding documents. Why do today, what we can go to war about later?

 

[Georgia Coast]

Um....should we talk about Lydia Hamilton Smith? Surely she influenced him.

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

Was she a chicken/egg thing, where they were involved because he really did somehow grow up myopically colorblind so had zero societal filters when it came to choosing a mate? She must have really been something, too, since he had a razor wit and suffered fools not at all. There's a man who required some 'handling', huh? He may have naturally gravitated to a black woman as a life partner not out of cantankerousness but because boy, here was someone who truly would understand his passions for equality and support them, and the other way around too. I'd have LOVED to meet her, talk about my list. He must have been SO, so tired, keeping up that whole cantakerous thing out in the world, I'll bet she was one of the kindest people God ever created, made coming home just peaceful as heck. It's one of my all-time favorite love stories. The Civil War has a FEW from unexpected men.

Yes, I've always had a slow broil going at the Founders ducking the slavery topic/issue, shufflling it off to another generation to deal with. The thing is, Constitutionally, there's a lot both ways except it would be more of a stretch to interpret holding one's fellow man in bondage. We were coming out of a truly brutal birth, our parentage was literally stained with the blood of those who perished for daring to raise their eyes to the level of another human who claimed some right to be 'better' than them. You cringe, reading of the sheer brutality, people shot and hung like the rabbits they were accused of 'stealing' from their 'betters' in England, some folks required on pain of death to tug forelocks when Lord and Lady hove into view, a place where accents were worn like caste marks never to be escaped. It's why Dickens was and is so shocking, people really were kind as regarded as bugs mostly, you were born in a certain class, oh well, just behave and mind your place, get the h*ll out of the way on the sidewalk when your social supieriers stroll through, you'll be fine. Our country really did at least try to leave this behind, it was one of the intents, , and it worked mostly. We were and are proud of never having to bend a knee to anybody, ever. Slavery had to just plain stick in the craw of those who interpreted the Constitution as being unique and different from Europe's horrific societal yoke, how can we manufacture this condition of enslaved underclass and then justify it?

Don't anybody yell at me please, it's just the way I see it but I think possibly it would have been easier for the southern mentality to allow this slow slide back to our parentage in perspective. There had been that whole aristocracy thing from the inception of the plantation way of life, permeating the culture and indeed replicating the European peerage class system. It's more understandable and allowable to have a BOTTOM, bottom class in a culture where exists an acknowledged 'aristocracy', hence easier to justify slavery. Just my opinion.

 

[OpnCoronet]

Historically, the only real problem with Reconstruction was that it did not last long enough. But, the influence of the Radical's such as Stevens lived on long after them and directly affected the resumption of reconstruction a century later, i.e., their civil rights amendments to the Constitution.

P.S. and that does not include their very important contributions to the winning of the CW.

 

[unionblue]

More by Thaddeus Stevens:

"Every humane and patriotic heart must grieve to see a bloody and causeless rebellion, costing thousands of human lives and millions of treasure. But as it was predetermined and inevitable, it was long enough delayed. Now is the appropriate time to solve the greatest problem ever submitted to civilized man." -- January 22, 1862.

"What opportunity is presented to this Republic to vindicate her consistency and become immortal. The occasion is forced upon us, and the invitation presented to strike the chains from four million of human beings, and create them MEN; to extinquish slavery on this whole continent; to wipe out, so far as we are concerned, the most hateful and infernal blot that has ever disgraced the escutcheon of man; to write a page in the history of the world whose brightness shall eclipse all the records of heroes and of sages." -- January 22, 1862.

"I care not whether the soldiers are of Milesian, Teutonic, African or Angelo-Saxon descent. I despise the principle that make a difference between them in the hour of battle and death. The idea that we are to keep up that distinction is abhorrent to the feeling of the age, is abhorrent to the feeling of humanity, is shocking to every decent instinct of our nature." -- In a speech to give black soldiers equal pay, April 30, 1864.

"The whole fabric of southern society must be changed, and never can it be done if this opportunity is lost. Without this, this government can never be, as it never has been, a true republic." -- September 6, 1865.

Unionblue

 

[unionblue]

Thaddeus Stevens at the end:

"My sands are nearly run, and I can only see with the eye of faith. I am fast descending the downhill of life, at the foot of which stands an open grave. But you, sir, are promised length of days and a brilliant career. If you and your compeers can fling away ambition and realize that every human being, however lowly-born or degraded, by fortune is your equal, that every inalienable right which belongs to you belongs also to him, truth and righteousness will spread over the land, and you will look down from the top of the Rocky mountains upon an empire of one hundred millions of happy people." -- July 7, 1868, as part of presentation on impeachment resolution after President Johnson had been acquitted.

"I will be satisfied if my epitaph shall be written thus: "Here lies one who never rose to any eminence, who only courted the low ambition to have it said that he striven to ameliorate the condition of the poor, the lowly, the downtrodden of every race and language and color."" -- Speech, January 13, 1865, as quoted in History of the Antislavery Measures of the Thirty-seventh and Thirty-eighth Congress (1865) by Henry Wilson, pg. 388.

"I repose in this quiet and secluded spot not from any natural preference for solitude, but finding other cemeteries limited as to race by charter rules, I have chosen this that I might illustrate in my death the principles which I advocated through a long life: EQUALITY OF MAN BEFORE HIS CREATOR."
-- Epitaph on his grave in Lancaster, Pensylvania.

Unionblue

 

[unionblue]

Thaddeus Stevens with an interesting view of the South and a poor one of the North:

"It is my purpose nowhere in these remarks to make personal reproaches; I entertain no ill-will toward any human being, nor any brute, that I know of, not even the skunk across the way to which I referred. Least of all would I reproach the South. I honor here courage and fidelity. Even in a bad, a wicked cause, she shows a united front. All her sons are faithful to the cause of human bondage, because it is their cause. But the North -- the poor, timid, mercenary, driveling North -- has no such united defenders of her cause, although it is the cause of human liberty. None of the bright lights of the nation shine upon her section. Even her own great men have turned her accusers. She is the victim of low ambition -- an ambition which prefers self to country, personal aggrandizement to the high cause of human liberty. She is offered up a sacrifice to propitiate southern tyranny -- to conciliate southern treason." -- June 10, 1850, in a speech before Congress on the Fugitive Slave Act. Page 123, Vol. 1, Palmer.

Unionblue

 

[OpnCoronet]

Thaddeus Stevens with an interesting view of the South and a poor one of the North:
"It is my purpose nowhere in these remarks to make personal reproaches; I entertain no ill-will toward any human being, nor any brute, that I know of, not even the skunk across the way to which I referred. Least of all would I reproach the South. I honor here courage and fidelity. Even in a bad, a wicked cause, she shows a united front. All her sons are faithful to the cause of human bondage, because it is their cause. But the North -- the poor, timid, mercenary, driveling North -- has no such united defenders of her cause, although it is the cause of human liberty. None of the bright lights of the nation shine upon her section. Even her own great men have turned her accusers. She is the victim of low ambition -- an ambition which prefers self to country, personal aggrandizement to the high cause of human liberty. She is offered up a sacrifice to propitiate southern tyranny -- to conciliate southern treason." -- June 10, 1850, in a speech before Congress on the Fugitive Slave Act. Page 123, Vol. 1, Palmer.
Unionblue

He speaks from the heart of one who cannot really understand, those who do not or will not see, the war as he did. As the opportunity for the United States to finally be able to live up to its historic promise, without the stain of chattle slavery.

 

[SC Partizan]

Thaddeus Stevens.View attachment 13357

The face of evil.

 

[AndyHall]

I believe some time in the past you said you were a descendant of a Confederate soldier.
-So make that Andy Hall and unionblue.

I do wonder sometimes why a chance familial relationship to people who lived and died long before I was born, should obligate me to defend their beliefs that I don't share, to honor actions that I don't consider especially honorable, to assert "truths" that aren't true, or generally not to think for myself.

 

[matthew mckeon]

The face of evil.

Evil face founded the Thaddeus Stevens Institute of Technology, a school still in operation. Stevens wanted a school for "indigent orphans," where they could learn both langauge arts and a trade. Evil to the last, he insisted that students would be admited without regard to their race, religion or national origin.

 

[SC Partizan]

I do wonder sometimes why a chance familial relationship to people who lived and died long before I was born, should obligate me to defend their beliefs that I don't share, to honor actions that I don't consider especially honorable, to assert "truths" that aren't true, or generally not to think for myself.

Interestingly, these are the same reasons why I consider Lincoln and the Union to be the villains of the ACW, but somehow that is not considered to be a sign of "thinking for myself".

I agree that you should honor those whose cause was worthy and right. It's what I do...and none wore blue.

Thaddeus Stevens was nothing but a pettifogging and vengeful dictator whose ultimate legacy is our enslavement to the overreaching behemoth of a government that we have today.

 

[SC Partizan]

Evil face founded the Thaddeus Stevens Institute of Technology, a school still in operation. Stevens wanted a school for "indigent orphans," where they could learn both langauge arts and a trade. Evil to the last, he insisted that students would be admited without regard to their race, religion or national origin.

Hitler was a vegetarian who dearly loved his German Shepherds, doted on small children, craved chocolate and was a practical joker....but these are hardly indicative of the complete picture of the man.

We can always find some pleasant anecdote or characteristic about someone or some event, but we must strive to look at the whole truth. So often this is sadly lacking when we come to the subject of the ACW and its aftermath.

 

[matthew mckeon]

Hitler was a vegetarian who dearly loved his German Shepherds, doted on small children, craved chocolate and was a practical joker....but these are hardly indicative of the complete picture of the man.

We can always find some pleasant anecdote or characteristic about someone or some event, but we must strive to look at the whole truth. So often this is sadly lacking when we come to the subject of the ACW and its aftermath.

And I suggest that the "whole truth" isn't that Thaddeus Stevens was Hitler, or the "face of evil," or any other kind of hysterical nonsense. He just didn't buy into the lie of ****. I doubt you do either. You think like Thaddeus Stevens, the whole country does, at least out loud.

 

[rpkennedy]

I agree that you should honor those whose cause was worthy and right. It's what I do...and none wore blue.

Thaddeus Stevens was nothing but a pettifogging and vengeful dictator whose ultimate legacy is our enslavement to the overreaching behemoth of a government that we have today.

The protection of slavery was worthy and right?

And you might want to read about the history of the US from 1865-1930 or so. Because the government that we have today is far more related to what transpired in the 1930s-40s than what happened from 1861-1865.

R

 

[SC Partizan]

The protection of slavery was worthy and right?

And you might want to read about the history of the US from 1865-1930 or so. Because the government that we have today is far more related to what transpired in the 1930s-40s than what happened from 1861-1865.

R

The protection of sovereignty, state's rights and the principle of secession were worthy and right. The Yankee fight supposedly turned to slavery only after Lincoln freed a total of zero slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation in January 1863.

Lincoln and the Radicals opened the Pandora's box to release the specter of an unlimited federal government; no matter how slowly the monster arose afterward, it still all started in the ACW. It's a central reason why, warts and all, I believe that the South's effort and cause were just.

 

[rpkennedy]

The protection of sovereignty, state's rights and the principle of secession were worthy and right. The Yankee fight supposedly turned to slavery only after Lincoln freed a total of zero slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation in January 1863.

Lincoln and the Radicals opened the Pandora's box to release the specter of an unlimited federal government; no matter how slowly the monster arose afterward, it still all started in the ACW. It's a central reason why, warts and all, I believe that the South's effort and cause were just.

The problem is that the South seceded in order to protect slavery. The South cared not one whit for states' rights when it wasn't their right to slavery that was on the block. The South regularly trampled on others' rights when there was even a perceived threat to slavery. As for sovereignty, states are sovereign in many matters; it's just that the federal government is supreme (and this idea goes back to long before the 1860s).

R

 

[Tin cup]

The protection of sovereignty, state's rights and the principle of secession were worthy and right. The Yankee fight supposedly turned to slavery only after Lincoln freed a total of zero slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation in January 1863.

Lincoln and the Radicals opened the Pandora's box to release the specter of an unlimited federal government; no matter how slowly the monster arose afterward, it still all started in the ACW. It's a central reason why, warts and all, I believe that the South's effort and cause were just.

Excrement...Where do you come up with this "unlimited federal government" stuff?
What do you call what Davis did to the Confederacy...Conscription Acts, Impressment Acts, Confiscation Acts, Price fixing, Government price controls, Rationing, ...where is all that "protection of sovereignty" ? Oh, and God forbid you exercise your freedom of speech by proclaiming "Abolition" in the Confederacy!

The South being "Anti Big Government" and ALL "States Rights" just gets weaker and weaker.

Kevin Dally

 

[unionblue]

The face of evil.

SC Partizan,

Too easy, too much of a 'knee-jerk' response.

Thaddeus Stevens, in my own view, was a hard man born a century too early.

He comes across as a 21st century man in views, his quotes, and his beliefs in the equality of all men. That he was born in a time were human slavery was considered 'normal' and legal and had the ability to see what a wrong it was strikes me that he was a remarkable human being and a courageous man.

"The face of evil?" I'm sure there were those who thought such, but they're dead. Stevens was harsh to those who supported inequality, slavery, and those who had no desire to help those in need or in the despair of bondage. To those folks, I'm sure he came across as evil, harsh, unforgiving, an implacable enemy who would never give them a moments peace or rest.

Thank God.

Unionblue