US Conscription debate

[Schwallanscher]

And just as the CS had to resort to conscription because of lack of public support so did the US. The decline in people willing to volunteer in the US and the political leadership determination to compel them to serve in order to conquer the CS reveals the US as not having the moral high ground in the conflict. At least the CS could say it was defending off an invader.

did you just say it's okay to start a war but unfair to be presented a bill for that?

 

[Aussie Billy Sherman]

The Confederacy was never recognised as a seperate nation so the northern armies were not doing any invading at all. They were just putting down a rebellion

 

[leftyhunter]

When did mythology replace historical fact?
A small but very vocal segment of the nation (USA=both North and South) opposed the war for various reasons, that does not mean the war had no support in the North or that the Union resorted to the draft because it could not fulfill its enlistment quotas.
A few points,
Enlistments overwhelmed the ability of the system to provide for incoming soldiers in the first year of the war, in fact many regiments that served in the Western theater were not fully outfitted and equipped until 1863.
Both armies expanded at an incredible pace in the first 20 months. Equipment, uniforms, weapons, horses, facilities and command personnel were not in place to handle the demands. The draft was a way to schedule inductions.

I will have to politely disagree with the assertion that the draft was necessary in order to efficiently process new enlisties. Their were fierce draft riots in New York city and Boston plus in the upper MidWest. McPherson Battle Cry tof Freedom has details.Also the Union had to resort to large bonus's for mew volunteers and to induce veterans to reenlist. In addition Richard Current documents that Northern states sent recruiters to Southern states to enlist Southners In order to meet their state quotas. Approximately 55k Unionists enlisted in out of state regiments although by no means did all do because of bonus's.
Leftyhunter

 

[CSA Today]

The term"rich mans war poor mans fight" comes from the South. Only 5% of the Union Army was draftees. I have a thread "how serious was Union desertion" that with sources where some Northern municipalities paid for draft substitions plus their were private insurance companies that had policies to pay for substitutes.
How many Confederate soldiers defected and joined the Union Army vs Union soldiers that did the same? Why did the Confederacy have to torture Southern white women to find out where their conscript evader men folk were?
Leftyhunter

Approximately 15% of North Carolina troops were draftees with nary a draft riot. Many of these were transfers from reserve to regular army units. For example, Junior Reserves were sent involuntarily to regular units once they turned 18 unless they volunteered. The deserters hanged by Picketts were content in their reserve batallion until they were sent to reinforced to two regular army regiment.

 

[johan_steele]

There is a difference between conscription and a draft. Why is there this persistent willful ignorance of the difference? US soldiers were drafted not conscripted if one doesn't know the difference maybe they shouldn't condemn it while praising the CS conscription system.

CS soldiers were conscripted by conscription parties that literally roamed though the countryside gathering up anyone the conscription officer didn't like, couldn't evade, or couldn't afford to bribe to go away.

 

[johan_steele]

What was Sherman doing in Georgia?

Winning a war.

 

[johan_steele]

Approximately 15% of North Carolina troops were draftees with nary a draft riot. Many of these were transfers from reserve to regular army units. For example, Junior Reserves were sent involuntarily to regular units once they turned 18 unless they volunteered. The deserters hanged by Picketts were content in their reserve batallion until they were sent to reinforced to two regular army regiment.

There were no draftees in the CS military, they were conscripts. Pickett acted correctly it seems. Men in a reserve Regt were content until they were ordered to the front after which they promptly deserted. Sounds like Home Guard slave catchers who were quite content to do their part until they were ordered to the line where they might actually face armed men.

I once read a statement by a CS officer who believed that if a soldier wasn't fallen among his Regiment or paroled at Appomattox etc he was a deserter to the cause.

 

[CSA Today]

There were no draftees in the CS military, they were conscripts. Pickett acted correctly it seems. Men in a reserve Regt were content until they were ordered to the front after which they promptly deserted. Sounds like Home Guard slave catchers who were quite content to do their part until they were ordered to the line where they might actually face armed men.

I once read a statement by a CS officer who believed that if a soldier wasn't fallen among his Regiment or paroled at Appomattox etc he was a deserter to the cause.

Never heard that. The Home Guard were usually content to catch slaves and execute so-call American soldiers caught preying on innocent civilians both black and white.

What is your explanation for the more extensive desertion rate among the Federals?

 

[johan_steele]

Never heard that. The Home Guard were usually content to catch slaves and execute so-call American soldiers caught preying on innocent civilians both black and white.

What is your explanation for the more extensive desertion rate among the Federals?

I never would have gone so far as to call a CS deserter a "so-call American soldiers" but if you want to that's your prerogative.

My view towards US desertion is likely the same as yours toward CS desertion.

 

[CSA Today]

I never would have gone so far as to call a CS deserter a "so-call American soldiers" but if you want to that's your prerogative.

My view towards US desertion is likely the same as yours toward CS desertion.

Nor would have I.

 

[1SGDan]

The fact the US was forced to resort to conscription proves this. That the war was a war of conquest and deeply unpopular. The substitute provision makes clear it was a rich mans war and a poor mans fight. US conscription is proof there was no real support in the north for ending slavery . US conscription is proof that Lincoln was nothing more than a political prostitute willing to send thousands of conscripts to their deaths for the benefit of northern economic elites.
US conscription was also a handy tool to corral votes to help Lincoln steal the 64 election. What soldier when given the hint by his superior to vote Lincoln would dare do otherwise.

Nothing in this post supports any of the outrageous conclusions you have presented.

 

[damYankee]

Approximately 15% of North Carolina troops were draftees with nary a draft riot. Many of these were transfers from reserve to regular army units. For example, Junior Reserves were sent involuntarily to regular units once they turned 18 unless they volunteered. The deserters hanged by Picketts were content in their reserve batallion until they were sent to reinforced to two regular army regiment.

Deserters hanged by Picketts were content? Wouldn't they be dead?

 

[johan_steele]

Nor would have I.

Except that you did in the post I quoted. If you wish to revise your view and edit your post that's understandable.

 

[thomas aagaard]

conscription or the option of using it is the norm in modern democracies.
As a citizen you got a number of rights and some duties. One is defending your country.
(in some countries only males are required to do so. In others it is everyone who got this duty)

Back in 1860 almost every young danish man served for 18 month in the army from the time he turned 22... (and then in the reserve until he turned 35. So almost every danish soldier in 1864 had previous military experience when they got called up for the war )
Prussian men served for 3 years if in the infantry. 4 in the more specialized branches. (and then years in the reserves)

Today we still got the same system of conscription. Every year young men have to show up and do a IQ test, get looked at by a doctor and similar. (And so can any women who want to)
But the current number the military need is smaller than the number of volunteers.
This duty is clearly descried in our Constitution.

One advantage is that we know the height of the soldiers in 1864 and every ear since. and since the end of wwii the weight and IQ of 90% of all young men from years birth year.

Finland, Israel and Switzerland are 3 democracies where a large% of all men (and women) serve each year.

 

[atlantis]

conscription or the option of using it is the norm in modern democracies.
As a citizen you got a number of rights and some duties. One is defending your country.
(in some countries only males are required to do so. In others it is everyone who got this duty)

Back in 1860 almost every young danish man served for 18 month in the army from the time he turned 22... (and then in the reserve until he turned 35. So almost every danish soldier in 1864 had previous military experience when they got called up for the war )
Prussian men served for 3 years if in the infantry. 4 in the more specialized branches. (and then years in the reserves)

Today we still got the same system of conscription. Every year young men have to show up and do a IQ test, get looked at by a doctor and similar. (And so can any women who want to)
But the current number the military need is smaller than the number of volunteers.
This duty is clearly descried in our Constitution.

One advantage is that we know the height of the soldiers in 1864 and every ear since. and since the end of wwii the weight and IQ of 90% of all young men from years birth year.

Finland, Israel and Switzerland are 3 democracies where a large% of all men (and women) serve each year.

And both the US an CS gov't knew of the Danish system and similar systems and yet they established systems that favored the wealthy and those with political connections.

 

[CSA Today]

Deserters hanged by Picketts were content? Wouldn't they be dead?

You may be confused by a post from another poster implying that the men were contented Home Guardsmen until transferred to regular army units. Home Guardsmen were older men assigned to their own counties.The deserters hanged by Pickett were younger military aged men formerly of the in state reserve 8th Battalion Partisan Rangers, also known as Lt. Col. John H. Nethercutt's battalion. They deserted to the enemy when transferred to the regular army 66th NC Infantry or to the 10th NC artillery.

 

[CSA Today]

Except that you did in the post I quoted. If you wish to revise your view and edit your post that's understandable.

I never said that Confederate deserters to a unionist unit were suddenly American again though given their desire to avoid combat I may have been tempted to say such.

 

[johan_steele]

I never said that Confederate deserters to a unionist unit were suddenly American again though given their desire to avoid combat I may have been tempted to say such.

Funny, I thought you were talking about CS deserters not being American. I already know you barely consider US soldiers American. I was quite startled to see you refer to CS soldiers who deserted in such a way.

Oh well; we will have to agree to disagree because I like to think of CS soldiers as Americans deserving of some respect.

 

[leftyhunter]

Approximately 15% of North Carolina troops were draftees with nary a draft riot. Many of these were transfers from reserve to regular army units. For example, Junior Reserves were sent involuntarily to regular units once they turned 18 unless they volunteered. The deserters hanged by Picketts were content in their reserve batallion until they were sent to reinforced to two regular army regiment.

If they were content they wouldn't of joined the Union Army.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Never heard that. The Home Guard were usually content to catch slaves and execute so-call American soldiers caught preying on innocent civilians both black and white.

What is your explanation for the more extensive desertion rate among the Federals?

And torture women who didnt reveal where their menfolk were hiding which I have auoted many times. Not to mention stealing and raping which has been discussed on previous threads on the Home Guard.
Leftyhunter