US Conscription debate

[Pavel]

Probably pretty unpopular if you were a draftee in an infantry unit. Was it a war of conquest, it was if you were a German or Japanese in 1945.

The German soldiers fought until the end in 1945, and do not say that this war is not popular.

 

[Pavel]

We played our hand well, letting the UK, France exhaust themselves first.

Well, then, thank you for my country.

 

[damYankee]

The German soldiers fought until the end in 1945, and do not say that this war is not popular.

There are many reasons nations use conscription during times of war. Let's keep our focused on the American Civil War and the reasons conscription were used by both sides.

 

[Pavel]

There are many reasons nations use conscription during times of war. Let's keep our focused on the American Civil War and the reasons conscription were used by both sides.

Yes you are right. A little carried away.

 

[atlantis]

The German soldiers fought until the end in 1945, and do not say that this war is not popular.

My father a infantry soldier fought the Germans, he was proud of his service but hated war.

 

[atlantis]

There are many reasons nations use conscription during times of war. Let's keep our focused on the American Civil War and the reasons conscription were used by both sides.

And just as the CS had to resort to conscription because of lack of public support so did the US. The decline in people willing to volunteer in the US and the political leadership determination to compel them to serve in order to conquer the CS reveals the US as not having the moral high ground in the conflict. At least the CS could say it was defending off an invader.

 

[OpnCoronet]

The fact the US was forced to resort to conscription proves this. That the war was a war of conquest and deeply unpopular. The substitute provision makes clear it was a rich mans war and a poor mans fight. US conscription is proof there was no real support in the north for ending slavery . US conscription is proof that Lincoln was nothing more than a political prostitute willing to send thousands of conscripts to their deaths for the benefit of northern economic elites.
US conscription was also a handy tool to corral votes to help Lincoln steal the 64 election. What soldier when given the hint by his superior to vote Lincoln would dare do otherwise.

Conscription does not prove a war of conquest or the popularity of a war.
All wars throughout history, have almost always been 'rich man wars and poor men's fight and, in any case, proves nothing about whether the rich man and poor man share a purpose in fighting the war.
If Conscription proved Lincoln a political prostitute, what did it make Davis? The fact is, conscription proves little or nothing about those who institute it, or accepted it.. Everything in your post applies with equal force against Jefferson Davis and his Administration in Richmond.

Your false premises have led you to false conclusions.

 

[leftyhunter]

I said in my opening statement the war was unpopular, what I am pointing out is the public was willing to let the south go and the elites were not and resorted to conscription to prevent secession.

I don't know about that. Quite a few Union young men eagerly enlisted in the first two years. After the Emancipation proclamation quite a few black men eagerly served. Very true that by mid 1863 both sides enlistment enthusiasm wained . On the other hand the Union did not suffer on a per capita basis the amount of desertion and collapse of internal order that the Confederacy experianced. My thread Union vs CSA guerrillas" has sourced information about that.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

In addition to the draft, the United States has been able to help many countries in the fight against fascism.

True the Soviets did love their Spam.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

And just as the CS had to resort to conscription because of lack of public support so did the US. The decline in people willing to volunteer in the US and the political leadership determination to compel them to serve in order to conquer the CS reveals the US as not having the moral high ground in the conflict. At least the CS could say it was defending off an invader.

Except in East Tennessee see my posts in " persistent Civil War myths". Black folks didn't really seem to mind being set free from their super duber kind masters.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

We played our hand well, letting the UK, France exhaust themselves first.

You might want to study the America First Movement. You might also consult a peer reviewed biography of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Your statement is simply not true.
Leftyhunter

 

[Tennessee_Mountainman]

Firstly, the initial war goal was to preserve the Union, not end slavery. The war goal changed in 1863 when Lincoln gave his Gettysburg Address, stating "Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth, upon this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived, and so dedicated, can long endure." It was unpopular because the North at the beginning of the war was suffering defeat after defeat. You will see this same situation for the South near the end of the war, when Sherman took the fight to the people during his "March to the Sea." In fact, the CSA introduced conscription a year before the Union did. After Gettysburg and the Fall of Vicksburg, Union morale was renewed.

Secondly, I don't understand where all this "Lincoln was a tyrant for not letting the South go," because it is the duty for every president, even if he/she is against the idea, to keep the country in one. It is an oath they all must take.

 

[Youngblood]

Does anyone else think conscription should have ended with the 13th amendment?

"Neither slavery nor involuntary seritude.."

 

[leftyhunter]

Does anyone else think conscription should have ended with the 13th amendment?

"Neither slavery nor involuntary seritude.."

No. The Supreme Court never thought so. Did the authors of the 13th amendment ever argue for the constitutional end of compulsory military service?
Leftyhunter

 

[Youngblood]

Im not implying thats what they meant to say.

Isn't being drafted a form of involuntary servitude?

 

[leftyhunter]

Im not implying thats what they meant to say.

Isn't being drafted a form of involuntary servitude?

Yes that was an argument for the end of the draft in 1973. On the other hand a nation for it's survival has the right to equitably ensure that the burden of military is fairly distributed.
Every major democracy has used the draft when it felt the need to do so. So has every dictatorship if they felt it was necessary.
Certainly Jefferson Davis didn't have a problem with Conscription. The Southern man certainly did and that led to a lot of major problems for the Confederacy. Not to say the Union draft didn't have major problems.
Leftyhunter

 

[unionblue]

Im not implying thats what they meant to say.

Isn't being drafted a form of involuntary servitude?

I look at it being called to pay the debt owed the nation for the services it has rendered to it's citizens.

Just like the old saying: "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch."

 

[dlofting]

I think conscription on both sides reflected a much more intense, bloody conflict than either originally imagined, one that couldn't continue to depend on volunteers only to fill the ranks. Support for the war had little to do with it.

 

[atlantis]

I am not a fan of how conscription was executed in either CS or US. Since the thread is about US conscription I will focus on the US. 5% of US soldiers were conscript yet that burden did not fall fairly on the population for the substitute provision allowed those with the means to avoid service. Victors write the history books and so Lincoln and congress get a pass for enacting a conscript law that made a mockery out of the emancipation proclamation. Free the southern slaves but conscript poor northern whites, if preserving the union was so important should not the sons of wealth do their share to preserve it. If the crisis was as grave as US leaders claimed then universal service should have been instituted, that it was not is proof that the people were deceived.
Those who argue that the war was about 1 saving the union 2 ending slavery should face the truth that was US conscription, that the war was a war of conquest for the benefit of wealthy northerners.

 

[damYankee]

When did mythology replace historical fact?
A small but very vocal segment of the nation (USA=both North and South) opposed the war for various reasons, that does not mean the war had no support in the North or that the Union resorted to the draft because it could not fulfill its enlistment quotas.
A few points,
Enlistments overwhelmed the ability of the system to provide for incoming soldiers in the first year of the war, in fact many regiments that served in the Western theater were not fully outfitted and equipped until 1863.
Both armies expanded at an incredible pace in the first 20 months. Equipment, uniforms, weapons, horses, facilities and command personnel were not in place to handle the demands. The draft was a way to schedule inductions.