General Dan Sickles, Revisited

[Eric Wittenberg]

Yep, good advice, I plan on being there Sept 18th through the 20th than again in late October or early November.

I'm headed there tomorrow myself, as I have a tour to lead on Saturday. I recommend tracking down my friend Jim Hessler, who's a licensed battlefield guide and THE authority on Sickles, and seeing if you can hire him. He will give you great insight.

If you're interested in perhaps meeting up somewhere for an adult beverage, drop me a PM.

 

[4065921]

UOTE="JPK Huson 1863, post: 1200395, member: 6168"]" but, he respected and cared for his men, they responded positively to his leadership and he fought bravely in the face of the enemy "

Sickles knew exactly how exposed he was. This was no cautious creep. Drummer, bugles, skirmishers thrown out, flags,- observers said it was breathtaking, like something perfectly performed on a parade ground. Except it was a battlefield and he'd just ruptured the Union line. Sickles not only gave the enemy other men as gifts, creating flanks not there previously he exposed his own men in brand, new flanks. These soldiers were roadkill, Sickles just strung them out across the freeway with 2 way truck traffic. It may be tough building a defense claiming Sickles respected or cared for his men. Honestly am not picking at your academia, it just seems a massive challenge.
..[/QUOTE]

Thaks for your interest JPK,

I should point out the purpose of my research is not to exonerate Sickles in regards to the specific action he took at Gettysburg. In fact I am critical of his tactile acumen particularly in the deployment of his troops in the Peach Orchard. However I think the perceptions many have of Sickles as a shirker who wantonly disobeyed orders and callously caused the death of thousands for his own glorification are misplaced.

I have found no report that Sickles ever ill-treated or disrespected his men. On the contrary reports are that Sickles took every effort to win the good will of his men, "and so popular did he become, that no inducement, however strong, could have any effect toward turning them against him."

Thomas Keneally writes that "Sickles showed a daily enthusiasm for commanding and training his mass of young men, and did fear being intimately bound to them, he was able to exercise strong command without evoking resentment, and the daily routine of reveille, roll call, morning and afternoon drill, surgeon's call, guard mounting, evening parade, and retreat was insisted upon."

I have read several accounts of Sickles performance in battle and in every situation from the Seven Days battle through Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville, there are no accounts of him being insubordinate and all reports are that he led his men well and fought bravely.

Bob

 

[4065921]

You will need to present a very, very solid argument, for what seems to be a "what if" situation, which may explain you advisor's tepid response. Good luck

Yeah I got that as well ... my goal is not to justify his action but to detail its effect on the outcome of the battle.

 

[4065921]

I'm headed there tomorrow myself, as I have a tour to lead on Saturday. I recommend tracking down my friend Jim Hessler, who's a licensed battlefield guide and THE authority on Sickles, and seeing if you can hire him. He will give you great insight.

If you're interested in perhaps meeting up somewhere for an adult beverage, drop me a PM.

Jim Hessler ?, as in Author James Hessler, Sickles at Gettysburg: The Controversial Civil War General Who Committed Murder, Abandoned Little Round Top, and Declared Himself the Hero of Gettysburg.

 

[Eric Wittenberg]

Jim Hessler ?, as in Author James Hessler, Sickles at Gettysburg: The Controversial Civil War General Who Committed Murder, Abandoned Little Round Top, and Declared Himself the Hero of Gettysburg.

That would be the one. He's a licensed battlefield guide.

 

[StephenColbert27]

To be honest, it's hard to imagine that the taking of Little Round Top would have affected much. With the arrival of the VI Corps, it would likely have been retaken in short order, especially considering the exhausted state of Longstreet's corps, and the fact that Little Round Top is far easier to take from the Union side.

 

[E_just_E]

To be honest, it's hard to imagine that the taking of Little Round Top would have affected much. With the arrival of the VI Corps, it would likely have been retaken in short order, especially considering the exhausted state of Longstreet's corps, and the fact that Little Round Top is far easier to take from the Union side.

Ummm. No Remember the 10,000 men of Longsteet's Corps who were fresh until the next day? And Hood's Division, if they received little resistance at LRT, would have been pretty fresh too. Now think about 50 canons throwing canister towards the North from LRT and there is no way anyone will be coming up that hill in one piece from cemetery ridge. Pretty much the reverse of what occurred the next day, switching sides and with a harder terrain to conquer and the ability to have a much much much thinner front line.

 

[virginiaworm]

Ummm. No Remember the 10,000 men of Longsteet's Corps who were fresh until the next day? And Hood's Division, if they received little resistance at LRT, would have been pretty fresh too. Now think about 50 canons throwing canister towards the North from LRT and there is no way anyone will be coming up that hill in one piece from cemetery ridge. Pretty much the reverse of what occurred the next day, switching sides and with a harder terrain to conquer and the ability to have a much much much thinner front line.

Remember the whole 6th corps was sitting behind LRT. So even if the ANV had established a foot hold there it would have been short lived.

And ... you can't get 50 cannon on it. The union barely got six there and they could not point in the right direction.
Only 2 could fire north towards the day 3 activities. The other 4 could not be brought to bear.

LRT, imo, was better for forces who wanted to face south and west. But not a great platform for anyone facing north.

 

[StephenColbert27]

Ummm. No Remember the 10,000 men of Longsteet's Corps who were fresh until the next day? And Hood's Division, if they received little resistance at LRT, would have been pretty fresh too. Now think about 50 canons throwing canister towards the North from LRT and there is no way anyone will be coming up that hill in one piece from cemetery ridge. Pretty much the reverse of what occurred the next day, switching sides and with a harder terrain to conquer and the ability to have a much much much thinner front line.

That would certainly be a formidable force, but as Virginia just said, there would be no way for them to mount those guns. Only 2 of those could fire on Union forces on Cemetary Ridge. There's also the fact that the Eastern face of Little Round Top is heavily wooded; hardly good ground to mount artillery, unlike where the Union mounted their guns. The VI Corps would have been attacking this Eastern Face, nullifying their artillery. I'm also unsure where these 10,000 fresh troops Longstreet has are coming from. Hood and McLaws would be spent.

 

[E_just_E]

I'm also unsure where these 10,000 fresh troops Longstreet has are coming from.

Pickett

 

[StephenColbert27]

Pickett

That was 5,000 men, not 10,000. So you have two depleted divisions and one fresh division going against an entire fresh corps. Advantage Union.

 

[Carronade]

Had Sickles remained in position on Cemetery Ridge, that part of the Union Army would have crumpled under the sheer mass of more than 14,000 Confederate infantrymen.

Had Sickles remained in position, most of those 14,000 Confederates would have been marching across his front, would they not? Their planned axis of advance was up Emmitsburg Road, in line perpendicular to it. Indeed, McLaws' division was to be on the left or west side of the road, fine for cooperating with Hood in the planned advance, but rather awkwardly placed if the two divisions had to swing right while under fire from Cemetary Ridge.

most of those 14,000 Confederates, or maybe all.....would the right of Hood's division, presumably still Laws' brigade, have troubled to march up and down both Round Tops, or just advanced up the valley of Plum Run? Plum Run would put them well behind the expected Yankee position on Emmitsburg Road; their intention was to hit Cemetary Ridge further north.

Even if Hood's line did extend as far right as the Round Tops, that doesn't automatically mean the Confederates take the Yankees in flank. Sickles' original position extended to the base of Little Round Top, and as we know he was conscious of the danger of letting the enemy occupy high ground overlooking his positions. He could either occupy it himself or call for reinforcements from V Corps or elsewhere.

The Confederates misunderstood the Union positions on July 2, and their main blow was poised to strike into thin air - until Sickles moved his corps up to where the rebs were expecting to find it. He did reduce his vulnerability somewhat by refusing his left flank, but that also created a salient and spread his troops over more ground than they could effectively cover.

 

[klongstreet]

" but, he respected and cared for his men, they responded positively to his leadership and he fought bravely in the face of the enemy "

Sickles knew exactly how exposed he was. This was no cautious creep. Drummer, bugles, skirmishers thrown out, flags,- observers said it was breathtaking, like something perfectly performed on a parade ground. Except it was a battlefield and he'd just ruptured the Union line. Sickles not only gave the enemy other men as gifts, creating flanks not there previously he exposed his own men in brand, new flanks. These soldiers were roadkill, Sickles just strung them out across the freeway with 2 way truck traffic. It may be tough building a defense claiming Sickles respected or cared for his men. Honestly am not picking at your academia, it just seems a massive challenge.

I've been able to change my mind about other generals who took hits at Gettysburg. Howard for instance really did well- you hear an awful lot about his ineffectiveness and he wasn't. The single doubt remaining in my head about Sickles would be his resolve to maintain Gettysburg as a sacred site. Have a theory for all his bluster some tiny, tiny part of the guy understood a lot of that National Cemetery was being dedicated to his handiwork. Keeping Gettysburg a memorial to all who died there in some measure helped his conscious ( may have had one, we'll never know ) pay a debt.

If there were accidental consequences benefitting the Union army as a result of Sickle's egomaniacal break from Meade's line, we can't hand Sickles the credit. It would be easier to defend why Meade was able to command the army as long as he did. Why? He didn't get arrested for shooting Sickles in the head at Gettysburg..

 

[klongstreet]

I really can't agree with you more

 

[HardeeBoy]

Thesis. Cool

Want a piece of advice? Spend a few days there... Go. Walk. See. Look. Smell. And write. And go back at night and look at maps and read. Repeat a few times.

Good luck

Dang, I hadn't intended to write a paper myself but after reading your suggestion I may just have to go there anyway.

 

[Northern Light]

Dang, I hadn't intended to write a paper myself but after reading your suggestion I may just have to go there anyway.

Go, you will not regret it.

 

[E_just_E]

Dang, I hadn't intended to write a paper myself but after reading your suggestion I may just have to go there anyway.

Go
And write. Doesn't have to be a paper

 

[4065921]

Had Sickles remained in position, most of those 14,000 Confederates would have been marching across his front, would they not? Their planned axis of advance was up Emmitsburg Road, in line perpendicular to it. Indeed, McLaws' division was to be on the left or west side of the road, fine for cooperating with Hood in the planned advance, but rather awkwardly placed if the two divisions had to swing right while under fire from Cemetary Ridge.

most of those 14,000 Confederates, or maybe all.....would the right of Hood's division, presumably still Laws' brigade, have troubled to march up and down both Round Tops, or just advanced up the valley of Plum Run? Plum Run would put them well behind the expected Yankee position on Emmitsburg Road; their intention was to hit Cemetary Ridge further north.

Even if Hood's line did extend as far right as the Round Tops, that doesn't automatically mean the Confederates take the Yankees in flank. Sickles' original position extended to the base of Little Round Top, and as we know he was conscious of the danger of letting the enemy occupy high ground overlooking his positions. He could either occupy it himself or call for reinforcements from V Corps or elsewhere.

The Confederates misunderstood the Union positions on July 2, and their main blow was poised to strike into thin air - until Sickles moved his corps up to where the rebs were expecting to find it. He did reduce his vulnerability somewhat by refusing his left flank, but that also created a salient and spread his troops over more ground than they could effectively cover.

I have been reading Shelby Foote's epic 3 volume set on the Civil War for some time. There is a passage on page 507 of volume two in which he addresses the "what if" scenario of Sickles staying on Cemetery Ridge as directed by Meade. Foote states that Sickles position in the Peach Orchard discouraged Longstreet's Corps from marching up the Emmitsburg Road, which probably would have meant utter destruction if Sickles Corps had stayed back on the ridge to tear into their flank as they went by .

Standing on the Emmitsburg Road looking east towards Cemetery Ridge I can imagine Longstreet's Corps, 13,000 strong, slowly moving down Seminary Ridge getting into position for the attack on the Union Left flank. 2 or 3 regiments of confederate skirmishers are 100-200 feet ahead of the main body crossing the Emmitsburg Road forcing Union pickets back towards their line on Cemetery Ridge. Leading the skirmishers is a sharp eyed Confederate lieutenant who follows the movement of the Union Pickets back to the low end of the ridge 3/4 mile further east. He looks north up the road and sees nothing. The lieutenant sends a report up the chain of command informing his seniors of his observations.

I am fully cognizant of the fact that that I am only a 59 year old post grad student and Shelby is a world famous Historian but … there is no way that I can believe battlefield commanders as experienced as Longstreet, Mclaws and Hood would have marched their men due north up the Emmitsburg Road under those circumstances. Instead the entire Corps of Longstreet, supported by Alexander's artillery, would have marched unimpeded due east fully engaging the extreme left flank of the Union line. Buford had retired without relief so there is no cavalry screen to warn Sickles as to the full extent of what is coming. If you consider how far they got fighting **** near the entire Union Army that day it is not a stretch to conclude that had Sickles stayed on the ridge Longstreet would have succeeded in turning the Union left.

 

[virginiaworm]

I have been reading Shelby Foote's epic 3 volume set on the Civil War for some time. There is a passage on page 507 of volume two in which he addresses the "what if" scenario of Sickles staying on Cemetery Ridge as directed by Meade...


...I am fully cognizant of the fact that that I am only a 59 year old post grad student and Shelby is a world famous Historian but … there is no way that I can believe battlefield commanders as experienced as Longstreet, Mclaws and Hood would have marched their men due north up the Emmitsburg Road under those circumstances. Instead the entire Corps of Longstreet, supported by Alexander's artillery, would have marched unimpeded due east fully engaging the extreme left flank of the Union line. Buford had retired without relief so there is no cavalry screen to warn Sickles as to the full extent of what is coming. If you consider how far they got fighting **** near the entire Union Army that day it is not a stretch to conclude that had Sickles stayed on the ridge Longstreet would have succeeded in turning the Union left.

Wait... what?

You realize that Longstreet was under orders from Lee to attack up the Emmitsburg Road? Is it your position that you think he would have just disobeyed orders ?

Aside from that...
They would not need Buford there to screen for them. They saw Longstreets move south via the signal station on LRT and had multiple regiments out as skirmishers to screen. The Union forces were in Pitzers woods engaging the confederates as they moved. You obviously know of the whole Warren/ signal station thingy...

I think it is quite a stretch to conclude that Longstreet would have rolled up/turned the Union Left if Sickles was where he was supposed to be.

Novelist Foote is not exactly the best source for info on Sickles at the burg. Maybe Coddington, Pfanz, Hessler, Gettysburg Mag, GDG discussions, LBG information would be more fruitful?

 

[FZ11]

I have been reading Shelby Foote's epic 3 volume set on the Civil War for some time. There is a passage on page 507 of volume two in which he addresses the "what if" scenario of Sickles staying on Cemetery Ridge as directed by Meade. Foote states that Sickles position in the Peach Orchard discouraged Longstreet's Corps from marching up the Emmitsburg Road, which probably would have meant utter destruction if Sickles Corps had stayed back on the ridge to tear into their flank as they went by .

Standing on the Emmitsburg Road looking east towards Cemetery Ridge I can imagine Longstreet's Corps, 13,000 strong, slowly moving down Seminary Ridge getting into position for the attack on the Union Left flank. 2 or 3 regiments of confederate skirmishers are 100-200 feet ahead of the main body crossing the Emmitsburg Road forcing Union pickets back towards their line on Cemetery Ridge. Leading the skirmishers is a sharp eyed Confederate lieutenant who follows the movement of the Union Pickets back to the low end of the ridge 3/4 mile further east. He looks north up the road and sees nothing. The lieutenant sends a report up the chain of command informing his seniors of his observations.

I am fully cognizant of the fact that that I am only a 59 year old post grad student and Shelby is a world famous Historian but … there is no way that I can believe battlefield commanders as experienced as Longstreet, Mclaws and Hood would have marched their men due north up the Emmitsburg Road under those circumstances. Instead the entire Corps of Longstreet, supported by Alexander's artillery, would have marched unimpeded due east fully engaging the extreme left flank of the Union line. Buford had retired without relief so there is no cavalry screen to warn Sickles as to the full extent of what is coming. If you consider how far they got fighting **** near the entire Union Army that day it is not a stretch to conclude that had Sickles stayed on the ridge Longstreet would have succeeded in turning the Union left.

The Confederates don't know the Union line extends south to LRT until they discover Sickles advanced position. "A man's got to know his limitations." Stay in school,son.