Grant About Grant

[FarawayFriend]

If we could have only seen how Lincoln would have guided the country through reconstruction. IMO he seemed to have a plan that was not followed (as M.E Wolf points out). Grant held no predidious toward the South or for that matter the southern soldiers.

I always thought it a bitter irony that Booth wanted to take revenge for the Confederacy by murdering Lincoln and by doing this ruined a very good chance for a merciful reconstruction.
And I alwaysfind it fascinating how personal friendship was suspended for the duration of the war but afterwards was resumed and lead to many positive results.
And please allow one short deviation to Longstreet again: as I'm presently cut off my resources, was it Grant as President who sent Longstreet to Turkey as Ambassador?

 

[OldGreyMare]

Something that I'd like to comment as someone diagnosed with Asperger's as far as Grant being an Aspie or not:
http://www.autism-help.org/behavior-compulsions-routines-rituals.htm

Where and how do we see this in Grant? Grant doesn't seem to have this holding him down, really.

I have two children and some assorted relatives with it -- a few of them, ok most, are/have been in the military...they are a lot like Grant (sadly, for a couple down to the drinking...but it wasn't combat that caused it...dealing with people has always stressed them out).
They are all quite successful in the military -- very focused on completing their missions (sometimes to the point of appearing ruthless, which is a big shock to those who know them otherwise, where they come across as almost too "soft") and very cool under fire.
And the horse thing too -- they've always been in many ways the better riders in the family, just never could do anything with it because of the people one has to deal with.

I don't think of it as something that would hold anyone down, by the way.

 

[War Horse]

I always thought it a bitter irony that Booth wanted to take revenge for the Confederacy by murdering Lincoln and by doing this ruined a very good chance for a merciful reconstruction.
And I alwaysfind it fascinating how personal friendship was suspended for the duration of the war but afterwards was resumed and lead to many positive results.
And please allow one short deviation to Longstreet again: as I'm presently cut off my resources, was it Grant as President who sent Longstreet to Turkey as Ambassador?

Excellent points! Grant appointed Lonstreet surveyor of Customs for the port of New Orleans. On May 19th 1880 President Hays nominated Lingstreet as the United States minister to Turkey. The senate confirmed it on June 14th.

 

[FarawayFriend]

Excellent points! Grant appointed Lonstreet surveyor of Customs for the port of New Orleans. On May 19th 1880 President Hays nominated Lingstreet as the United States minister to Turkey. The senate confirmed it on June 14th.

Thank you!

 

[M E Wolf]

When Grant stepped down as President, General Hays and Garfield both ran for that office of President --so there was a good stretch of military minded Presidents in the Executive Mansion.

All knew horrors of the Civil War.

I am of the opinion, that Grant set a standard for future ex-Generals of the Civil War to follow as the task of healing was long for the actual veterans but, this Nation still has lasting residue in this Civil War which brought the worst and the best out of people. Had the Nation fully healed, I must wonder (via posting) out loud, would there be such contention and sincere studies, let alone this site -CWT?

The Nation is better but, the wounds are carried through generations. Some by myths, some by a need to hate, some by the need to blame, some by the need for truth, etc.

Just some personal thoughts, observations and opinions,
M. E. Wolf

 

[cash]

I'm not very fermiliar with Cold Harbor. Didn't Grant ask in some unorthodox why and Lee refused to consent until asked properly?

Both generals looked bad in that incident. Grant sent a message to Lee saying the two sides should have a truce in order to collect the wounded. Lee stood on ceremony and demanded Grant follow the precise protocol of requesting a truce. The two went back and forth for days while men died. Either one could have given in and saved lives. Neither did.

 

[Elennsar]

I have two children and some assorted relatives with it -- a few of them, ok most, are/have been in the military...they are a lot like Grant (sadly, for a couple down to the drinking...but it wasn't combat that caused it...dealing with people has always stressed them out).
They are all quite successful in the military -- very focused on completing their missions (sometimes to the point of appearing ruthless, which is a big shock to those who know them otherwise, where they come across as almost too "soft") and very cool under fire.
And the horse thing too -- they've always been in many ways the better riders in the family, just never could do anything with it because of the people one has to deal with.

I don't think of it as something that would hold anyone down, by the way.

I don't think Asperger's Syndrome on the whole does - but it has elements that are definitely complications, not assets, and the rituals and routines thing can definitely be one depending on what exactly one's own comfort zone is.

On the bright side, a sense of having everything taken care of and the ducks lined up mentally so you can focus on the task at hand is wonderfully useful if one's duck-sorting can be done in normally stressful situations. Grant's level headedness seems to be the good side of "Aspies focus" type qualities. If he had an idea in his mind, mere anxiety wasn't going to drive it out.

 

[diane]

I have two children and some assorted relatives with it -- a few of them, ok most, are/have been in the military...they are a lot like Grant (sadly, for a couple down to the drinking...but it wasn't combat that caused it...dealing with people has always stressed them out).
They are all quite successful in the military -- very focused on completing their missions (sometimes to the point of appearing ruthless, which is a big shock to those who know them otherwise, where they come across as almost too "soft") and very cool under fire.
And the horse thing too -- they've always been in many ways the better riders in the family, just never could do anything with it because of the people one has to deal with.

I don't think of it as something that would hold anyone down, by the way.

Aspies do great in the military! It's organized, structured, stable and predictable - all things they need. Stonewall Jackson was in an academic setting, which also is highly structured, and added religion - a very conservative and firm variety, too - Calvinism.

 

[OldGreyMare]

Elennsar, that's kind of what I was driving at: it really comes down to them having some difficulty with the day to day schmoozing and chatty katy of everyday life that other people don't even consider. While it seems like such a petty little thing, it can cause a lot of other complications in their lives -- namely stress, which I've often wondered if the routine thing is simply a way to try and cope with and not necessarily integral to the syndrome -- hence the comments earlier about the penchant for misunderstanding and being misunderstood in return (which hasn't been helped by the fact that even now the syndrome isn't really well understood -- even today some people have this notion that autism = mental retardation and/or psychiatric illness...it isn't, but if they get labelled as such they do get set up to have to overcome that perception as well).
To bring it back to Grant, I have gotten the vague feeling from time to time that he did indeed seem to be laboring under this very thing; people even back then didn't seem to grok him well.

And yes, the amount of focus and ability to compartmentalize through that focus can be an incredible asset; this includes the ability to not give up -- especially in a situation like that. In that regard it is a gift -- but other people will probably still misunderstand what is going on with that person (aka. I have noticed in accounts that people do indeed have a hard time quite grasping who Grant really was, far more so than some of the other notables even, thus the wondering on my part).

This is perhaps a sign of our own shortcomings, as people seem to have this hang up with countenancing things that don't fit into the box of what we have determined as "normal" and thusly being uneasy with it. We seem incapable of allowing room for things that don't fit into our narrow, cookie cutter expectations of "how things should be" and recognizing their place and appropriateness in the grand scheme of things -- and that's on us.

Diane -- yes, they do! Personally, I think it's because it's one of (or used to be) the few places where they are allowed the freedom to just do their jobs, and be awarded for performance, and not have to deal with the frequently illogical as all get out politics of interpersonal relations so much as civilian life (which is pretty nutty anyway...civvies be crazy!). It isn't completely perfect, but it is more perfect than some other environments (and if people look into areas where aspie's do well, the same qualities seem to emerge in those environments).

 

[diane]

Both generals looked bad in that incident. Grant sent a message to Lee saying the two sides should have a truce in order to collect the wounded. Lee stood on ceremony and demanded Grant follow the precise protocol of requesting a truce. The two went back and forth for days while men died. Either one could have given in and saved lives. Neither did.

You're right that neither of them shone in this thing. However, I don't think it was so much protocol Lee was standing on as he was opposing the little psychological trick Grant had used on Pemberton. By squeezing a request out of Lee to bury bodies, he was also forcing Lee to act as if he (Grant) was the victor. With Pemberton, it got him used to asking Grant for things...like surrender. Lee was aware Grant was trying to gain an advantage in the mind-war and wouldn't let him have it. Instead, Grant had to finally acknowledge he had indeed been beaten by asking for a truce.

 

[M E Wolf]

MODERATOR'S CAUTION:

It would be a case of 'what if' when using various lables, e.g. Asperger's Syndrome, etc., as do attempt to describe the current/modern explaination of the traits that General U. S. Grant possessed.

With the climate of civilization's judgment on mental and or emotional fitness in the day being extremely harsh, to have been accepted and graduated from West Point, have been promoted through the ranks on their merits, it would be folly to attempt to pin down any mental/emotional flaw on General Grant or any other soldier, sailor and Marine; as to answer the question(s) of why this or that happens.

Since there are no medical records to concrete these diagnosis, it seems most unfair to the memory and the record of any of these military figures past. It would not be fair equally to any military personnel present.

The statements made in posts as if they are facts should be edited and in the future added that they are an assumption, an opinion and or such where the medical/emotional judgments cannot be proven by history, by personal memoirs` and or by medical doctors at the time of General U.S. Grant's life and or of any military personnel during the American Civil War.

Please use the standard of evidence demanded by the U.S. Courts of Law -- can these posted comments stand up in a court of law, in front of a jury, in front of a grand-jury? What proof does one have to prove these thoughts/opinions are true facts?

Again - this is just a Moderator's Caution. Members are permitted to post their opinions and assumptions yet, when they are done as to present it as if facts or a truth; please make sure that it can hold on its own to be a fact or truth. It is possible for a relative to challenge and claim deformation of character.

M. E. Wolf
POSTED IN THE CAPACITY OF MODERATOR
Dec. 29, 2014 2:38 p.m.

 

[Elennsar]

With due respect for moderator wisdom and authority, something I'd like to note as someone who has been diagnosed:

It's not defamation or character, its not sullying his memory, and its not a mental or emotional flaw even in the sense speculating on if Merriwether Lewis was bipolar is.

It's just a different brain, which includes weaknesses in areas other people handle smoothly as much as strengths in areas other people struggle.

I think we need to base any speculation on it on the same foundation as anything else said about him, but I don't think it's fair or right to us (the diagnosed) to make naming Grant as one a bigger deal than if we just had said "he was unusually good with horses and awkward at socializing" was before Hans Asperger ever studied anyone.

Just my personal feelings here, posted as someone who thinks the air of shame over autism (including Asperger's) does nothing except make problems.

 

[Dave Wilma]

MODERATOR'S CAUTION:

Please use the standard of evidence demanded by the U.S. Courts of Law -- can these posted comments stand up in a court of law, in front of a jury, in front of a grand-jury? What proof does one have to prove these thoughts/opinions are true facts?

In this forum are we to submit our opinions to lawyers for approval to this standard of proof? Is the moderator qualified to distinguish between evidence presented to a jury and evidence presented to a grand jury? Having spent close to 40 years in the criminal justice and child welfare justice system as well as in labor relations I can assure you that opinions vary on evidence even after presentation to a finder of fact.

This seems to be a new bar to be crossed for forum members.

 

[diane]

All due respect, M E Wolf - I understand where you are coming from. As a person who is diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome I agree with Elennsar that the stigma of this and other neurological conditions should be undermined as often as possible. All of us who are discussing the possibility of Grant having ASD or Jackson having it are presenting it as an asset, not a disability. And most of us discussing the possibility have it. It's not easy to prove to a grand jury's satisfaction that you have this neuro-diversity even in this present time because the definition of it is rather fluid. Even a diagnosis is hard to prove and the current DSM-IV has eliminated it altogether, lumping it under PDD-NOS. Pervasive Developmental Disorder also includes some severe forms of mental retardation so there is considerable controversy over this designation as well. Honest, we really meant no slam on Grant! If anything, if his brain was wired differently than most, it was to his advantage.

 

[Rebforever]

It is Yosemite Sams fault! "Give up? NEVAH!!"

All due respect, M E Wolf - I understand where you are coming from. As a person who is diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome I agree with Elennsar that the stigma of this and other neurological conditions should be undermined as often as possible. All of us who are discussing the possibility of Grant having ASD or Jackson having it are presenting it as an asset, not a disability. And most of us discussing the possibility have it. It's not easy to prove to a grand jury's satisfaction that you have this neuro-diversity even in this present time because the definition of it is rather fluid. Even a diagnosis is hard to prove and the current DSM-IV has eliminated it altogether, lumping it under PDD-NOS. Pervasive Developmental Disorder also includes some severe forms of mental retardation so there is considerable controversy over this designation as well. Honest, we really meant no slam on Grant! If anything, if his brain was wired differently than most, it was to his advantage.

We are ALL wired different, don't you think?

 

[diane]

It is Yosemite Sams fault! "Give up? NEVAH!!"


We are ALL wired different, don't you think?

Darn good thing, too! I have a t-shirt with two EEG's on it - one normal and the other a seizure. It says: My brain is more active than your brain! Don't wear it much - not everybody appreciates my gallows sense of humor... But there's a point here - if Grant or Jackson were aspies, does it take away from their abilities? Nope. Probably adds to it.

 

[Elennsar]

I look at it this way: If Grant was an Aspie, that's a pretty convincing argument that we should try to tap the talents of the oddly wired - who wouldn't want someone with his strengths in their organization?

Same in regards to Jackson, really. The good kind of single minded is a quality of the gifted, not the disabled.

 

[Specster]

War Horse,

I seem to recall, that the truces that took place between Grant and Lee, Lee refused as it wasn't written in the proper 'protocol.' The time of this back and forth though, Grant wasn't sitting still. If my memory serves me correctly, while this back and forth with Lee took place, there was a quiet shift in the rear lines closer to Petersburg/Richmond, thus --occupying Lee's attention as Grants Army slipped to a new position.

It reminds me of the Colonel "Swamp Fox" Marion(sp) of hanging lanterns and galloping horses there and there back and forth, as to create an illusion that he had more troops, thus tricked the British.

It seems somewhere in the movement when Grant finally is overall commander and headquarters with Meade's Army of the Potomac; that not only does he move to various places but, pulls men from Heavy Artillery fortifications into Infantry--they are also green when it comes to Infantry marching and fighting.

Just some thoughts and opinions,
M. E. Wolf

The way Shelby Foote describes it, (Cold Harbor) Lee wanted Grant to basically say he lost the battle - it is a protocol issue, I believe this all hung on hoisting a white flag - and Grant wanted an informal truce for 2 hours " so we could both collect our dead and wounded". The rub is, the Confederates didnt have many dead on the field. They were basically all behind works. Lee, for all his gentlemanly qualities wanted Grant to say Uncle, and he wouldn't, for 2 days. By the time they evacuated the injured, most had died.

Grant should have - he clearly lost. Later in life he said this was the one charge he wished he had never ordered. The battle only lasted 20 minutes or so and resulted in 7000 Union casualties.

Grant had an odd habit of avoiding battlefields after a battle. He did not like to personally see the carnage. He did not even want to see blood in his meat when he ate, insisting that all meat was well done. Some people think there is a connection.

 

[War Horse]

All very good points. I can say that I was fortunate enough to take the Petersburg battlefield tour. I can say the breastworks were the most elaborate and well constructed fortifications I have ever seen. The tour ended at City Point. Very impressive. I have photo's of the cabin Grant used as his headquarters. A very good book on the subject is "No Turning Back" by Robert M. Dunkerly, Donald C. Pfanz and David R. Ruth. It takes you step by step through the campaign. Consequently I believe Donald C. Pfanz is the son of Harry W. Pfanz who just passed away. A great historian.

 

[FarawayFriend]

All very good points. I can say that I was fortunate enough to take the Petersburg battlefield tour. I can say the breastworks were the most elaborate and well constructed fortifications I have ever seen. The tour ended at City Point. Very impressive. I have photo's of the cabin Grant used as his headquarters. A very good book on the subject is "No Turning Back" by Robert M. Dunkerly, Donald C. Pfanz and David R. Ruth. It takes you step by step through the campaign. Consequently I believe Donald C. Pfanz is the son of Harry W. Pfanz who just passed away. A great historian.

Thank you! Any chance that you share your photos with us?