Rethinking Shiloh Quote

tony_gunter

2nd Lieutenant
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Mississippi
Anyone have the book "Rethinking Shiloh" by Timothy Smith? I've seen mention of this quote by Grant in that book.

After hearing reports that Wallace refused to obey anything but writtenorders, an angry General Grant asserted that a division general "ought to take his troops to wherever the firing may be, even without orders." - Smith, pages 90-91

What is Smith's source for that paragraph?

Edit: is it Richardson, Albert Deane; Fletcher, R. H. (1885). A Personal History of Ulysses S. Grant? If so, does anyone know if he claims to have heard this firsthand, or possibly apocryphal? Was Richardson the first to make this claim?
 
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Anyone have the book "Rethinking Shiloh" by Timothy Smith? I've seen mention of this quote by Grant in that book.

After hearing reports that Wallace refused to obey anything but writtenorders, an angry General Grant asserted that a division general "ought to take his troops to wherever the firing may be, even without orders." - Smith, pages 90-91

What is Smith's source for that paragraph?

Edit: is it Richardson, Albert Deane; Fletcher, R. H. (1885). A Personal History of Ulysses S. Grant? If so, does anyone know if he claims to have heard this firsthand, or possibly apocryphal? Was Richardson the first to make this claim?


From 1868: p. 249...


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Thanks! As far as I can tell, this was a conversation between a cavalryman who rode up to Grant and Rowley and told Grant that when the soldier left Wallace he was still at Crump's and refusing to move without written orders.

Does anyone know if Richardson claims to have been present at that conversation, or if this was told to Richardson by Rowley?

Edit: Richardson first published in 1865, that book contains a conversation between Nelson and Grant at Pittsburg Landing, so I assume these are Richardson's recollections of the conversations as he followed Grant.
 
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Thanks! As far as I can tell, this was a conversation between a cavalryman who rode up to Grant and Rowley and told Grant that when the soldier left Wallace he was still at Crump's and refusing to move without written orders.

Does anyone know if Richardson claims to have been present at that conversation, or if this was told to Richardson by Rowley?

Edit: Richardson first published in 1865, that book contains a conversation between Nelson and Grant at Pittsburg Landing, so I assume these are Richardson's recollections of the conversations as he followed Grant.

According to Mr. Richardson's biography, he was present as a correspondent with Grant's army at and about the Battle of Shiloh... so apparently gathered his story by the customary journalistic means...

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https://www.google.com/books/editio...ichardson,+shiloh&pg=P***&printsec=frontcover
 
Richardson's The Secret Service, the Field, the Dungeon, and the Escape from 1865 indicate that he was with Pope at Island Number 10 and only went up to Shiloh after the battle. Apparently, some of his information came from John Rawlins. Furthermore, he was quite unreliable. From my blog:

Albert Deane Richardson's biography, A Personal History of Ulysses S. Grant, originally published in 1868, provided numerous familiar anecdotes about a great and good Grant. The book was republished in 1885 with certain corrections.

A scenario in the 1868 edition (pp. 253-54) started with Sherman chasing away the Rebels at Shiloh with some well-aimed artillery:

'That's the last of them,' said Grant. 'They will not make another stand.' Then he rode over to the left and shook hands with Thomas, who commanded one of Buell's divisions, and whom he had not met since the beginning of the war.

Grant.—'General, those fellows are completely demoralized. Take your division and another, and pursue. We can cut them all to pieces and capture a great many.'

Thomas.—'My men are completely used up. They marched all Saturday and Sunday and have been fighting all day. If you say so, of course, they shall march, but they are hardly able to move.'
After the author died, someone must have realized that George Thomas didn't even make it onto the field in time for the battle. His was the last in Buell's column of five divisions. The 1885 edition (pp. 249-50) removed both Thomas and the shaking of hands and, instead, inserted McCook, Nelson, and Crittenden.

The three replied that their men had been marching all Saturday and Sunday, and fighting ever since morning, and were completely used up. They were barely able to move, and the roads were so heavy that they could hardly hope to overtake the main body of the enemy.
Richardson further stated that, at Shiloh, "a bullet struck the General's scabbard and threw it up in the air. The sword dropped out and was never recovered." Grant's Memoirs indicate that he didn't lose his sword: "A ball had struck the metal scabbard of my sword, just below the hilt, and broken it nearly off; before the battle was over it had broken off entirely. There were three of us: one had lost a horse, killed; one a hat and one a sword-scabbard."

Another of the revisions concerned the astonishingly successful charge by almost four divisions of the Army of the Cumberland up Missionary Ridge which ended the battles for Chattanooga, Tennessee. Watching the troops ascend, a nervous Thomas on Orchard Knob, protested: "Those fellows will be all cut to pieces. They will never get to the top in the world." The new edition changed the speaker of this quote to Grant's staffer, James Harrison Wilson. The 1868 version also presented a conversation which placed division commander Absalom Baird on Orchard Knob that day, although he wasn't. In the 1885 edition, this was corrected to Thomas Wood. Unlike Forts Henry and Donelson, correspondent Richardson was not at Shiloh or Chattanooga.

But it's not just the employment of the earlier edition which showed questionable judgment in later biographers who utilized his work, but the use of Richardson at all. Without doubt, it is a great source of Grant quotes. But some are downright unbelievable. The author quoted dialogue between a five-year-old Jesse and his mother. Jesse and another boy have seven lines of quoted dialogue (and one of quoted thought). Somebody supposedly memorized seven lines of dialogue between an 11-year-old Grant and his father about hauling wood. For many of the multitudinous tales told about Ulysses, Richardson apparently obtained a verbatim transcript. Several of these were before Grant became famous or was even born. Given the extreme improbability of Richardson's accuracy in transcribing conversations and the frequent errors of history, this biography should be used with caution.
 
Richardson's The Secret Service, the Field, the Dungeon, and the Escape from 1865 indicate that he was with Pope at Island Number 10 and only went up to Shiloh after the battle. Apparently, some of his information came from John Rawlins. Furthermore, he was quite unreliable. From my blog:

Albert Deane Richardson's biography, A Personal History of Ulysses S. Grant, originally published in 1868, provided numerous familiar anecdotes about a great and good Grant. The book was republished in 1885 with certain corrections.

A scenario in the 1868 edition (pp. 253-54) started with Sherman chasing away the Rebels at Shiloh with some well-aimed artillery:


After the author died, someone must have realized that George Thomas didn't even make it onto the field in time for the battle. His was the last in Buell's column of five divisions. The 1885 edition (pp. 249-50) removed both Thomas and the shaking of hands and, instead, inserted McCook, Nelson, and Crittenden.


Richardson further stated that, at Shiloh, "a bullet struck the General's scabbard and threw it up in the air. The sword dropped out and was never recovered." Grant's Memoirs indicate that he didn't lose his sword: "A ball had struck the metal scabbard of my sword, just below the hilt, and broken it nearly off; before the battle was over it had broken off entirely. There were three of us: one had lost a horse, killed; one a hat and one a sword-scabbard."

Another of the revisions concerned the astonishingly successful charge by almost four divisions of the Army of the Cumberland up Missionary Ridge which ended the battles for Chattanooga, Tennessee. Watching the troops ascend, a nervous Thomas on Orchard Knob, protested: "Those fellows will be all cut to pieces. They will never get to the top in the world." The new edition changed the speaker of this quote to Grant's staffer, James Harrison Wilson. The 1868 version also presented a conversation which placed division commander Absalom Baird on Orchard Knob that day, although he wasn't. In the 1885 edition, this was corrected to Thomas Wood. Unlike Forts Henry and Donelson, correspondent Richardson was not at Shiloh or Chattanooga.

But it's not just the employment of the earlier edition which showed questionable judgment in later biographers who utilized his work, but the use of Richardson at all. Without doubt, it is a great source of Grant quotes. But some are downright unbelievable. The author quoted dialogue between a five-year-old Jesse and his mother. Jesse and another boy have seven lines of quoted dialogue (and one of quoted thought). Somebody supposedly memorized seven lines of dialogue between an 11-year-old Grant and his father about hauling wood. For many of the multitudinous tales told about Ulysses, Richardson apparently obtained a verbatim transcript. Several of these were before Grant became famous or was even born. Given the extreme improbability of Richardson's accuracy in transcribing conversations and the frequent errors of history, this biography should be used with caution.
Thanks! I'm not all that familiar with the Shiloh historiography.

The story closely aligns with Rowley's recollection of the event, so I would assume this was the recollection of Rowley as presented to Richardson.
 
Thanks! I'm not all that familiar with the Shiloh historiography.

The story closely aligns with Rowley's recollection of the event, so I would assume this was the recollection of Rowley as presented to Richardson.
Rowley was another unreliable source of anecdotes and information:

Less than two weeks after the battle, Rowley wrote: "Orders had also been sent to L Wallace, as soon as it was found the fight was becoming general to bring up his Division but as it did not make its appearance as soon as was expected I was sent through the lines by the General to ascertain the reason, and found that they had mistaken the road and were four miles out of the way, and necessarily had to retrace their steps to avoid coming in where the enemys forces were the strongest & running the risk of being cut off. the consequences was they did not get in until dark in the mean time our forces were gallantly contesting the ground inch by inch until dark."

In 1885, Rowley contradictorily (and falsely) asserted that, at Crump's "I found that General Wallace had left his rendezvous and was marching up the 'Purdy Road,' exactly in the opposite direction of the battle-field."
 

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