Zolli and Parker Hale repops

[KHyatt]

I'm still pretty new to CWT but I've read a lot of past threads as I've been searching for and ultimately purchasing a couple of CW period reproduction rifles, and I've become somewhat edumacated that way. I know y'all see the same sorts of questions probably WAY too often, but here go mine.

I first picked up a Zolli repro "Zouave" (1961 date of manufacture I think) in great condition at a local gun show last fall for $280 with a repro sword bayonet. I didn't have a chance to shoot much before cold weather set in but I did shoot it just to make sure it was OK. Lots of fun. I've read the many threads about whether or not the 63 Remington was issued during the war and I've found the many opinions and some battlefield discoveries to be quite interesting. Soooooo, where did the 10K or so units manufactured by Remington go? Anyone know? BTW, my great-grandfather was a guard at the Chicago Columbian Exposition in 1893. His uniform was cobbled together from CW surplus, including a ceremonial sword fashioned from a CW period sword bayonet. I've attached a pic. You can see from the guard of the "sword" in this photo that the it was intended to be a bayonet. I wonder if it could have been for one of those 1863 Remingtons?

I also recently picked up an early Parker Hale Enfield. It, too, was/is in great shape. There are some dings and scratches that indicate it had been handled. I don't think that it was ever fired, though, so I fixed that. ;-) I have hoped someone here could help me date it. The serial number is 2825. The proof mark on the underside of the barrel is circled A\4/B. Any thoughts?

And finally, I noticed when I seated my first minie ball in the PH that there is an area just ahead of the breech that seemed tighter than either the front of the barrel or the last inch or so just in front of the breech. Is that common for the progressive rifling or does that indicate something else? (I've sent off a couple of dozen minies so far and learned that I have a lot to learn.)

I appreciate input from any and all!

 

[KHyatt]

Oops! Sorry about the size of the pic.

 

[Craig L Barry]

The 1862/3 Remington contract rifles spent their Civil War service stored in Watervliet Arsenal in New York.

 

[7thWisconsin]

The 1863 bayonet has a "dip" in the blade near the end, a decorative feature whose name eludes me at the moment. I don't see it on that sword, so I don't think it's a re-purposed bayonet. The Zoli "Zouaves" are good guns sturdy and accurate. They don't get much love from the reenacting community because of that issuance problem. (Getting them out of reenacting, I believe, was the genesis of the "2 band muskets aren't safe" myth that survives to this day.)

 

[KHyatt]

Thanks fellers. After the war, do you know when and how the gov't finally disposed of the Remingtons? I see the originals are nearly as pricey as comparable Enfields and Springfields and several manufacturers still make reproductions - I'm curious to know why they're so popular. Now that I have the Parker Hale Enfield I'm thinking about selling or trading the Zolli.

I didn't think to look for that swale in the sword/bayonet, but now I see that it is obviously straight. I've handled that "sword" (he actually had two) and it was clearly a bayonet for something. The hilt was modified by wrapping it in leather to help conceal the original purpose.

 

[Craig L Barry]

Why are the reproduction Remington 62/3 contract rifles popular? Here are a few reasons:

1. They are attractive, reasonably well made (compared to current reproductions) shoot well and can be used in N-SSA competition.
2. They are inexpensive compared to both reproduction three band rifle-muskets and two band rifles that were in use historically
3. There are quite a few of them around since they were one of the first reproductions offered. They are not rare.

There is a quite a bit to be found on the "Remington Zouave" if you want to do some research on the topic. You wouldn't even have to necessarily leave this website, either. My recommendation to anyone inclined toward the purchase of a reproduction of this model is to consider the US 1841 Percussion Rifle (Mississippi) instead. Everything that's good about the Remington is also true of the US 1841...and it saw considerable use in both the Mexican War and the US Civil War.

 

[ikesdad]

Craig, has anyone ever written anything about the repro "Zouaves". There was a plethora of makers in a relatively short window of time. I have 6 or 8 locks and studying them, no 2 are identical.

 

[Craig L Barry]

Craig, has anyone ever written anything about the repro "Zouaves". There was a plethora of makers in a relatively short window of time. I have 6 or 8 locks and studying them, no 2 are identical.

Not to my knowledge...there is a chapter on them in The Civil War Musket (2006/2011) which is out of print and it really doesn't deal with the different reproductions. As far as reproductions from different manufacturers not being identical, that is exactly what you would expect. As an example, the most common reproduction Civil War-era rifle-musket is the P53 Enfield. Even limiting the discussion to the P53 reproductions made in England (Parker-Hale) and Italy (Armi-Sport, Euroarms & Pedersoli) none of them are the same in detail and locks won't interchange (generally---except by accident) between manufacturers.

What is interesting about that is the reproduction Parker Hale will pretty much interchange parts with an original RSAF type IV P53 Enfield and also LAC original parts because those were all machine made from parts made from the same gauges. However, the Italian made reproduction P53s were mostly copies of the reproduction Parker-Hale but don't interchange most parts.

 

[ikesdad]

Yes, I've had your book for awhile. And I have each, a Zoli and a PH 1858.
Some of my head scratching is regarding just the comparison of Zoli locks being a bit different with internals to each other and obviously the other early Zouave repro makers being each different, in more ways than only locks. One that comes to mind is the Bernardelli (I believe) with the soldered bolster then the "W" on subsequent welded production.

 

[ikesdad]

I also recently picked up an early Parker Hale Enfield. It, too, was/is in great shape. There are some dings and scratches that indicate it had been handled. I don't think that it was ever fired, though, so I fixed that. ;-) I have hoped someone here could help me date it. The serial number is 2825. The proof mark on the underside of the barrel is circled A\4/B. Any thoughts?

To date your PH, contact Dave at researchpress.co.uk with the stamps on the underside of the barrel

 

[KHyatt]

Thanks all!

 

[yulzari]

It is said that when West Germany was allowed to rejoin competitive muzzle loader shooting in the 1950's their team turned up with unused Remington M1863s which the Prussians had captured from the French in 1870. To whom they had been sold in the panic to arm the army of the French National Government after Napoleon III was captured at Sedan. They had sat safely in some German stores until after WW2. The Enfields and Springfields also captured were sold by the Germans to Turkey (some via Belgium) to become Snider or Polivache breech loading conversions.

 

[KHyatt]

That could explain why Iv'e seen some original M1863s for sale on European websites. I love the obscure (for me at least) history tidbits I pick up from you guys - thanks!

 

[Jobe Holiday]

The "Sword" held by your Grandfather is made from a post Civil War Remington Rolling Block Rifle bayonet, which was completely rehandled to make a sword out of it. These were made specifically for the Columbian Exposition and are quite well known today for what they are. As Craig Barry said, do a little archive research on this forum and ypou will find copious amounts of information regarding the Remington 1863 Rifle. The stories of finding parts of them on Civil War battlefields are purely mythical and did not happen.
J.

 

[KHyatt]

Thanks for the tip!

 

[poorjack]

The tightness in the breech area could be fouling from shooting blanks by reenactors. I've seen it before. My PH doesn't have that and with a RCBS Hogdon minie, 42g 3f Old Eynsford, RWS caps, 50/50 beeswax/lard lube, it'll shoot 2in groups at 100yds. I use it in North South Skirmish competition (NSSA see sticky in this forum). Most first gen PH made in Birmingham are great shooters if not ruined by reenactors.

 

[Mk VII]

I also recently picked up an early Parker Hale Enfield. It, too, was/is in great shape. There are some dings and scratches that indicate it had been handled. I don't think that it was ever fired, though, so I fixed that. ;-) I have hoped someone here could help me date it. The serial number is 2825. The proof mark on the underside of the barrel is circled A\4/B.

The meaning of the various British Birmingham proof marks, which varied in form somewhat from time to time, can be found here