William Quantrill's guerrillas/partisans

[DanSBHawk]

Indeed, would agree they should have turned in murderers in their midst such as jayhawkers or fanatics like John Brown.........Their failures repeatedly to do so lost any claim of innocence.

Also agree they should have let Federal Marshall's do their jobs....as well local and state authorities should have dealt with the criminal activity.......again their repeated failures to do so lost any claim of innocence.

No argument that vigilantism is often a response to such failures. It is indeed preferable for the proper authorities to actually do their jobs and enforce US laws, making vigilantism unnecessary.

What are you agreeing to? Nothing that I wrote.

 

[archieclement]

What are you agreeing to? Nothing that I wrote.

I guess you don't think murder of civilians is actually a crime then, or theft?

If you do, then you'd be condemning the jawhawkers and people of Lawrence who supported such criminals.

As well most historians on topic acknowledge when the Union adopted the position of killing guerrillas captured......they condemned their own troops/militia to same.......it would be foolhardy to think such policies wouldn't be returned.

 

[DanSBHawk]

I guess you don't think murder of civilians is actually a crime then, or theft?

If you do, then you'd be condemning the jawhawkers and people of Lawrence who supported such criminals.

The murder of civilians is definitely a crime.

The murdered at Lawrence were not given any kind of due process, so don't assume you know anything about them.

 

[archieclement]

The murder of civilians is definitely a crime.

The murdered at Lawrence were not given any kind of due process, so don't assume you know anything about them.

And you do

Seriously any credible historian acknowledges the widespread criminality that took place in Lawrence for years.....would be naive to think residents weren't aware of it.

Certainly if the people had complained and turned in and testified against the jayhawker criminals, it could have been dealt with properly......again was an obvious failure to have done so. The lack of due process was the responsibility of the people of Lawrence who choose sheltering criminals, instead of arresting them..........

The problem isn't in that they died, just they should have swung from a Kansas gallows........if justice had been done. So if your complaining about murder, laws, or justice it was a rather blatant failure on part of Kansans to have taken care of such crimes committed by criminals in their community.

 

[DanSBHawk]

And you do

Seriously any credible historian acknowledges the widespread criminality that took place in Lawrence for years.....would be naive to think residents weren't aware of it.

Certainly if the people had complained and turned in and testified against the jayhawker criminals, it could have been dealt with properly......again was an obvious failure to have done so. The lack of due process was the responsibility of the people of Lawrence who sheltered criminals, instead of arresting them..........

The problem isn't in that they died, just they should have swung from a Kansas gallows........if justice had been done. So if your complaining about murder, laws, or justice it was a rather blatant failure on part of Kansans to have taken care of such crimes committed by criminals in their community.

The criminality was on both sides of the border. So by your logic, it was perfectly fine to murder Missourians as well.

 

[archieclement]

Not to rob people, which was jayhawker motivation.

If you have examples of actual vigilante justice against known criminals in Missouri, instead of random murders, theft, and houseburnings certainly let's examine them.

What criminal ring was at Osceola? West Point, Butler, Papinville, or Harrisonville?

While certainly it's easy to find historians noting criminal activities centered in Lawrence for almost a decade, never have seen any such claims made about Missouri towns and villages burned and looted by jayhawkers.

Also was little need for Kansas "vigilantism" if you can even find an actual case motivated to punish criminals, instead of a looting raid, as in Missouri, our state militia and federal troops did hunt criminals............

 

[DanSBHawk]

Not to rob people, which was jayhawker motivation.

If you have examples of actual vigilante justice against known criminals in Missouri, instead of random murders, theft, and houseburnings certainly let's examine them.

What criminal ring was at Osceola? West Point, Butler, Papinville, or Harrisonville?

While certainly it's easy to find historians noting criminal activities centered in Lawrence for almost a decade, never have seen any such claims made about Missouri towns and villages burned and looted by jawhawkers.

In other words, you deny that the criminality was on both sides of the border. Blinders noted.

 

[archieclement]

Never said that at all, it's another example of your blinders apparently.

I noted our state militia did hunt criminals instead of letting a city shelter them openly for a decade. The protection instead of punishment of criminals was rather unique to Kansas. For example murderer John Brown certainly should have hung from a Kansas rope instead of a Virginia one......would have saved lives as well.

 

[A. Roy]

The OP might not have laid down a very specific question, but I was thinking that this thread was more about the identities of the men who rode with Quantrill, no?
ARB

 

[archieclement]

The OP might not have laid down a very specific question, but I was thinking that this thread was more about the identities of the men who rode with Quantrill, no?
ARB

Would think the motivations of why they rode is part and parcel. Which often was indeed from them personally, or their family and neighborhood suffering injustices visited on them by jawhawkers..........

Certainly if injecting Lawrence raid, it's not only why many joined, but motivation as to why it was chosen.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Would think the motivations of why they rode is part and parcel. Which often was indeed from them personally, or their family and neighborhood suffering injustices visited on them by jawhawkers..........

Certainly if injecting Lawrence raid, it's not only why many joined, but motivation as to why it was chosen.

Somewhere recorded in the Missouri State Archives searchable database, (https://www.sos.mo.gov/mdh/CivilWar/Resources) is a first person account of a Missouri Union soldier describing a small regimental sized battle between kansas cavalry and Missouri Union Militia fought in rural Missouri. The Missouri Union force confronted the kansas regiment, as they were attempting a return to kansas with stolen livestock and property taken during jayhawking raids of Western Missouri farms. I believe this occurred in either Jackson, Cass or Johnson County. The kansans were driving a herd of cattle and horses and a train of wagons loaded with stolen property. The Missourians blocked the trail with dismounted cavalry and a small number of cannons. A few shots were exchanged before a truce was called and the respective leaders entered into negotiation. What struck me was the demand from kansas officers to be allowed to keep the stolen property. I wish I had bookmarked the section where I found this narrative. There were many similar accounts detailing terrorist rainds of kansas union units.

 

[archieclement]

Somewhere recorded in the Missouri State Archives searchable database, (https://www.sos.mo.gov/mdh/CivilWar/Resources) is a first person account of a Missouri Union soldier describing a small regimental sized battle between kansas cavalry and Missouri Union Militia fought in rural Missouri. The Missouri Union force confronted the kansas regiment, as they were attempting a return to kansas with stolen livestock and property taken during jayhawking raids of Western Missouri farms. I believe this occurred in either Jackson, Cass or Johnson County. The kansans were driving a herd of cattle and horses and a train of wagons loaded with stolen property. The Missourians blocked the trail with dismounted cavalry and a small number of cannons. A few shots were exchanged before a truce was called and the respective leaders entered into negotiation. What struck me was the demand from kansas officers to be allowed to keep the stolen property. I wish I had bookmarked the section where I found this narrative. There were many similar accounts detailing terrorist rainds of kansas union units.

Indeed, I look at it as I do any other period of US history, including before or after ACW. Certainly organized justice is preferable to vigilante. But frequently on frontier organized law is lacking, so people turn to vigilante which would think is certainly better then no justice.

I have no issue if one thinks Lawrence raid was a tragedy......but certainly a rather large part of that tragedy was, and in direct response to the failure of Kansans to police themselves in regard to US and state law. Why historians note the widespread criminal activity that had gone unabated there. As well why it was chosen.

 

[Lost Cause]

The following is a protest from Union officers concerning Jennison and his regulars proliferating property from pro-Union citizens following Price's Raid
from "Jasper County in the Civil War" :

​

 

[Patrick H]

The following is a protest from Union officers concerning Jennison and his regulars proliferating property from pro-Union citizens following Price's Raid
from "Jasper County in the Civil War" :
View attachment 474946View attachment 474948

View attachment 474947

​

Jennison, Lane, and Montgomery were evil. Some readers might not be familiar with these individuals. If you have seen the movie "Glory" you have seen a good depiction of Darien, Georgia set to the torch by the troops of Montgomery (a jayhawker who had been reassigned to the southeast.) This was the M.O. of the jayhawkers.

 

[Lost Cause]

Jennison, Lane, and Montgomery were evil. Some readers might not be familiar with these individuals. If you have seen the movie "Glory" you have seen a good depiction of Darien, Georgia set to the torch by the troops of Montgomery (a jayhawker who had been reassigned to the southeast.) This was the M.O. of the jayhawkers.

Agreed, adding Blunt to the list.

 

[DanSBHawk]

This thread is about Quantrill and his group, correct?

Have any of these threads ever objectively looked at the Missouri guerrillas and what they did, or are these threads just exercises in blaming the other side? The posters who admire the missouri guerrillas seem very intent on shifting the blame to others.

 

[archieclement]

This thread is about Quantrill and his group, correct?

Have any of these threads ever objectively looked at the Missouri guerrillas and what they did, or are these threads just exercises in blaming the other side? The posters who admire the missouri guerrillas seem very intent on shifting the blame to others.

Anyone who has ever objectively looked at Missouri guerrillas and what they did would acknowledge the reason for their existence and motivations for joining, which certainly was a response to the lawless elements of the other side. Never read any serious works on guerrillas that doesn't note those aspects.

Puzzling you seem unaware, if you've actually ever studied them at all. As any works on the topic notes this.

 

[DanSBHawk]

...a response to the lawless elements of the other side.

Yep, that's what I thought.

 

[archieclement]

Certainly if one is objectively and honestly discussing the topic. Why its noted in all the studies of the guerrilla war.

Haven't seen one not noting the reason for the guerrillas, and common reasons for their joining.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Certainly if one is objectively and honestly discussing the topic. Why its noted in all the studies of the guerrilla war.

Haven't seen one not noting the reason for the guerrillas, and common reasons for their joining.

The obsession with one side being bad, and one side being good, unfortunately makes these Trans Mississippi discussions ridiculous.