William Clarke Quantrill

[ole]

Jane, I think it's "cool" that you have the same last name. (i have a Barnum pewter sculpture "Quantrill's Raiders"--it's action-packed and quite beautiful).

Do you read the posts in a thread before you comment? Jane is a descendant of William Clarke Quantrill. Don't know how and don't care. She is here now and one of the family.

 

[JaneQuantrill]

Jane, I think it's "cool" that you have the same last name. (i have a Barnum pewter sculpture "Quantrill's Raiders"--it's action-packed and quite beautiful).

Wow! That must be wonderful to look at. I have a lock of Quantrill's hair.

 

[KeyserSoze]

I have only visited the Higginsville grave, but hope, one day, to visit the others.

You were just down the road from me then.

 

[KeyserSoze]

He did both good and bad things; but 'to the winner goes the spoils', and I believe he has been unfairly demonized, as a result.

I don't know if he's been unfairly demonized but I'll agree that there were other people in the rebellion who were as bad or worse and who don't have the notoriety that Quantrill has.

 

[JaneQuantrill]

You were just down the road from me then.

Should have dropped in on you.At keast, I'm a living Quantrill... And all in one piece (so far)!

 

[JaneQuantrill]

Today, June 6th, 150 years ago; my ancestor, William Clarke Quantrill, died, after being mortally wounded, near Taylorsville, Kentucky on May 10th, 1865.

 

[Buckeye Bill]

Taylorsville was named after US President Zachary Taylor's father (land owner). This part of Kentucky is beautiful!

William is now buried in Higginsville, Missouri just north of I-70. I believe Patrick H snapped a photo of his grave site last year.

I passed this Confederate Cemetery as I was traveling to Lexington, Missouri to explore their American Civil War battlefield in 2011. Next time....

Higginsville is just west of my little sister's residence in Boonville, Missouri. Also the home of Patrick H. He is a wonderful man.

Bill

 

[leftyhunter]

I don't know if he's been unfairly demonized but I'll agree that there were other people in the rebellion who were as bad or worse and who don't have the notoriety that Quantrill has.

I am not an expert in irregular warfare during the Civil war however based on my readings Quantrill killed unarmed children so yes he earns his bad rap. In order to judge if Quantril was evil or not we should compare apples to apples. The apple would be did Unionist guerrillas kill children in cold blood? Perhaps but I have not come acroocs any evidence that they have.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

I don't know if he's been unfairly demonized but I'll agree that there were other people in the rebellion who were as bad or worse and who don't have the notoriety that Quantrill has.

Champ Ferguson comes to mind.
Leftyhunter

 

[JaneQuantrill]

Taylorsville was named after US President Zachary Taylor's father (land owner). This part of Kentucky is beautiful!

William is now buried in Higginsville, Missouri just north of I-70. I believe Patrick H snapped a photo of his grave site last year.

I passed this Confederate Cemetery as I was traveling to Lexington, Missouri to explore their American Civil War battlefield in 2011. Next time....

Higginsville is just west of my little sister's residence in Boonville, Missouri. Also the home of Patrick H. He is a wonderful man.

Bill

Thanks Bill! I've been to the cemetery in Higginsville. It was such a strange feeling to be there.

 

[Specster]

I am not an expert in irregular warfare during the Civil war however based on my readings Quantrill killed unarmed children so yes he earns his bad rap. In order to judge if Quantril was evil or not we should compare apples to apples. The apple would be did Unionist guerrillas kill children in cold blood? Perhaps but I have not come acroocs any evidence that they have.
Leftyhunter

I am sure some irregular unionist leaning forces perpetrated atrocities, but not on the scale of Quantrill at Lawrence. Prior to the war John Brown and his ilk come to mind. If I thought my wife or mother had been buried under tons of ruble intentionally, I would have been pretty upset. Yet, I dont know if anyone really knows whether that collapse was orchestrated or was a pure accident, then or now. Lawrence, for me, was unforgivable.

Just as an aside, according to J. Shaara, less than 12 civilians died at the hands of the Union during the entire seige of Petersburg. (and I know that is not apples to apples, those were regular Union army).

 

[Foosfoos]

I live in Louisville and ironically will be within 2 blocks of this cemetery later this week. i will take a stroll around and see if i can find his grave. I will post a pic on this thread if I find it.

 

[JaneQuantrill]

I live in Louisville and ironically will be within 2 blocks of this cemetery later this week. i will take a stroll around and see if i can find his grave. I will post a pic on this thread if I find it.

Thankyou; I would really appreciate that!

 

[Patrick H]

I don't know how I managed to miss this thread in early May. I've only seen it just now (June 7, late evening hours) for the first time. Many of you already know that the Missouri guerrillas are especially interesting to me. Quantrill's band of guerrillas is probably the most famous of the MO guerrilla bands, but it's by no means the only such organization that fought in Missouri.

Four or five years ago, I would have insisted that Quantrill was as thoroughly evil as so many authors have made him out to be. However, after much more reading and thought, I've come to think of him somewhat differently. There's no doubt he has been demonized. He probably deserves SOME of that, but not all of it.

He did take prisoners and attempt to exchange them. He did parole prisoners. He did shelter some people in Lawrence.
...but, of course, he sometimes executed people.

He lost ultimate control of his command after Lawrence and I believe this is because Anderson and Todd thought Quantrill was too soft, too fair minded and too honorable.

I don't believe there's any evidence that Quantrill ordered 13 year old boys killed at Lawrence, although many writers insist that he ordered the death of anyone old enough to carry a gun. I suspect Bill Anderson was responsible for that order.

I believe the Lawrence raid was originally planned as a specific strike at the headquarters of the Redlegs and Jayhawkers and I believe it had been considered for a very long time. I believe the injury and deaths of some of the guerrillas' sisters and sisters in law in the Kansas City jail collapse changed the raid motive for a lot of the guerrillas. I believe the death of Josephine Anderson (Bill's young sister) altered his personal motive in an extremely dark way. I believe Anderson drew some of the most blood thirsty of the boys to his own command and I don't believe they needed much encouragement from him to run amok at Lawrence. I think we could draw a very similar parallel to the Viet Nam raid on the village of My Lai 4, where the raiders went in expecting to wipe out a VC strong hold and wound up killing practically everything that moved. Quantrill gets to take the blame for what happened in Lawrence because he was still in overall command, but I don't believe he ordered a massacre of civilians. Nevertheless, civilians did get massacred. I can't say without a doubt that Anderson and Todd and their companies were responsible for the excesses at Lawrence, but I think it's a pretty safe bet.

Lawrence soured some very tough guerrilla soldiers who parted with the band and went into regular Confederate service soon afterwards. I believe those men went to Lawrence expecting a military sort of raid and were disgusted by what they witnessed there.. Lawrence also had the effect of ramping up the blood lust of others among the band--most notoriously, those in Anderson's and Todd's companies. Centralia, Rawlings Lane and Goslin's Lane followed soon after. Quantrill did not participate in those actions. Instead, he seems to have taken a break from the war and gone into "semi retirement" in south Howard County, Missouri.

Please realize that all of these musings are conclusions I've drawn from my own reading. I know that many of you will have different views. None of us will ever have anything but our own conclusions about a lot of Quantrill's history. The man was nearly impossible to understand in life. How can we hope to understand him accurately 150 years after his death? We have only the writings of demonizers and apologists and we must somehow draw our own conclusions from those sources.

Regarding the Quantrill remains at Higginsville: Those bones had been in Kansas for a long time. I've read they had been in a private collection at first and later with the state historical society. I can't say whether that much is accurate. They were, indeed buried in the Confederate cemetery at Higginsville and there are two other graves in other locations which bear some of Quantrill's remains.

 

[JaneQuantrill]

I don't know how I managed to miss this thread in early May. I've only seen it just now (June 7, late evening hours) for the first time. Many of you already know that the Missouri guerrillas are especially interesting to me. Quantrill's band of guerrillas is probably the most famous of the MO guerrilla bands, but it's by no means the only such organization that fought in Missouri.

Four or five years ago, I would have insisted that Quantrill was as thoroughly evil as so many authors have made him out to be. However, after much more reading and thought, I've come to think of him somewhat differently. There's no doubt he has been demonized. He probably deserves SOME of that, but not all of it.

He did take prisoners and attempt to exchange them. He did parole prisoners. He did shelter some people in Lawrence.
...but, of course, he sometimes executed people.

He lost ultimate control of his command after Lawrence and I believe this is because Anderson and Todd thought Quantrill was too soft, too fair minded and too honorable.

I don't believe there's any evidence that Quantrill ordered 13 year old boys killed at Lawrence, although many writers insist that he ordered the death of anyone old enough to carry a gun. I suspect Bill Anderson was responsible for that order.

I believe the Lawrence raid was originally planned as a specific strike at the headquarters of the Redlegs and Jayhawkers and I believe it had been considered for a very long time. I believe the injury and deaths of some of the guerrillas' sisters and sisters in law in the Kansas City jail collapse changed the raid motive for a lot of the guerrillas. I believe the death of Josephine Anderson (Bill's young sister) altered his personal motive in an extremely dark way. I believe Anderson drew some of the most blood thirsty of the boys to his own command and I don't believe they needed much encouragement from him to run amok at Lawrence. I think we could draw a very similar parallel to the Viet Nam raid on the village of My Lai 4, where the raiders went in expecting to wipe out a VC strong hold and wound up killing practically everything that moved. Quantrill gets to take the blame for what happened in Lawrence because he was still in overall command, but I don't believe he ordered a massacre of civilians. Nevertheless, civilians did get massacred. I can't say without a doubt that Anderson and Todd and their companies were responsible for the excesses at Lawrence, but I think it's a pretty safe bet.

Lawrence soured some very tough guerrilla soldiers who parted with the band and went into regular Confederate service soon afterwards. I believe those men went to Lawrence expecting a military sort of raid and were disgusted by what they witnessed there.. Lawrence also had the effect of ramping up the blood lust of others among the band--most notoriously, those in Anderson's and Todd's companies. Centralia, Rawlings Lane and Goslin's Lane followed soon after. Quantrill did not participate in those actions. Instead, he seems to have taken a break from the war and gone into "semi retirement" in south Howard County, Missouri.

Please realize that all of these musings are conclusions I've drawn from my own reading. I know that many of you will have different views. None of us will ever have anything but our own conclusions about a lot of Quantrill's history. The man was nearly impossible to understand in life. How can we hope to understand him accurately 150 years after his death? We have only the writings of demonizers and apologists and we must somehow draw our own conclusions from those sources.

Regarding the Quantrill remains at Higginsville: Those bones had been in Kansas for a long time. I've read they had been in a private collection at first and later with the state historical society. I can't say whether that much is accurate. They were, indeed buried in the Confederate cemetery at Higginsville and there are two other graves in other locations which bear some of Quantrill's remains.View attachment 70162



View attachment 70163

View attachment 70164

Thankyou for your thoughts re Quantrill and Lawrence. I have also believed that much of the blame for some of the most horrific deeds done there, can be blamed on Todd, and in particular, Anderson. I'm not saying this to take the blame away from my ancestor; like you, I have come to this conclusion from what I've read.

 

[JaneQuantrill]

Photo I took of monument to those killed in the Lawrence Raid.

 

[leftyhunter]

I am sure some irregular unionist leaning forces perpetrated atrocities, but not on the scale of Quantrill at Lawrence. Prior to the war John Brown and his ilk come to mind. If I thought my wife or mother had been buried under tons of ruble intentionally, I would have been pretty upset. Yet, I dont know if anyone really knows whether that collapse was orchestrated or was a pure accident, then or now. Lawrence, for me, was unforgivable.

Just as an aside, according to J. Shaara, less than 12 civilians died at the hands of the Union during the entire seige of Petersburg. (and I know that is not apples to apples, those were regular Union army).

At the very least their was a lot of negligence regarding the condition of the Garriot Street prison. Quantrill did the CSA no favors since after lawrence the KN troops where more then willing (although they did not kill children) to make life not fun for Missourians.
Leftyhunter

 

[Buckeye Bill]

I don't know how I managed to miss this thread in early May. I've only seen it just now (June 7, late evening hours) for the first time. Many of you already know that the Missouri guerrillas are especially interesting to me. Quantrill's band of guerrillas is probably the most famous of the MO guerrilla bands, but it's by no means the only such organization that fought in Missouri.

Four or five years ago, I would have insisted that Quantrill was as thoroughly evil as so many authors have made him out to be. However, after much more reading and thought, I've come to think of him somewhat differently. There's no doubt he has been demonized. He probably deserves SOME of that, but not all of it.

He did take prisoners and attempt to exchange them. He did parole prisoners. He did shelter some people in Lawrence.
...but, of course, he sometimes executed people.

He lost ultimate control of his command after Lawrence and I believe this is because Anderson and Todd thought Quantrill was too soft, too fair minded and too honorable.

I don't believe there's any evidence that Quantrill ordered 13 year old boys killed at Lawrence, although many writers insist that he ordered the death of anyone old enough to carry a gun. I suspect Bill Anderson was responsible for that order.

I believe the Lawrence raid was originally planned as a specific strike at the headquarters of the Redlegs and Jayhawkers and I believe it had been considered for a very long time. I believe the injury and deaths of some of the guerrillas' sisters and sisters in law in the Kansas City jail collapse changed the raid motive for a lot of the guerrillas. I believe the death of Josephine Anderson (Bill's young sister) altered his personal motive in an extremely dark way. I believe Anderson drew some of the most blood thirsty of the boys to his own command and I don't believe they needed much encouragement from him to run amok at Lawrence. I think we could draw a very similar parallel to the Viet Nam raid on the village of My Lai 4, where the raiders went in expecting to wipe out a VC strong hold and wound up killing practically everything that moved. Quantrill gets to take the blame for what happened in Lawrence because he was still in overall command, but I don't believe he ordered a massacre of civilians. Nevertheless, civilians did get massacred. I can't say without a doubt that Anderson and Todd and their companies were responsible for the excesses at Lawrence, but I think it's a pretty safe bet.

Lawrence soured some very tough guerrilla soldiers who parted with the band and went into regular Confederate service soon afterwards. I believe those men went to Lawrence expecting a military sort of raid and were disgusted by what they witnessed there.. Lawrence also had the effect of ramping up the blood lust of others among the band--most notoriously, those in Anderson's and Todd's companies. Centralia, Rawlings Lane and Goslin's Lane followed soon after. Quantrill did not participate in those actions. Instead, he seems to have taken a break from the war and gone into "semi retirement" in south Howard County, Missouri.

Please realize that all of these musings are conclusions I've drawn from my own reading. I know that many of you will have different views. None of us will ever have anything but our own conclusions about a lot of Quantrill's history. The man was nearly impossible to understand in life. How can we hope to understand him accurately 150 years after his death? We have only the writings of demonizers and apologists and we must somehow draw our own conclusions from those sources.

Regarding the Quantrill remains at Higginsville: Those bones had been in Kansas for a long time. I've read they had been in a private collection at first and later with the state historical society. I can't say whether that much is accurate. They were, indeed buried in the Confederate cemetery at Higginsville and there are two other graves in other locations which bear some of Quantrill's remains.View attachment 70162



View attachment 70163

View attachment 70164

Outstanding, Pat!

 

[diane]

@Patrick H, I've thought Quantrill was paddling the same boat Forrest was - both accused of ordering massacres. It's a question of whether and/or when they lost control of their men. Both went to clean out what they perceived to be a troublesome place and a base for enemy operations against civilian as well as military targets. Because both battles were exceedingly bloody and contained gruesome elements, besides the general chaos, it's very hard to determine what really happened and who was responsible for the worst of it. I, too, agree that Bill Anderson was the main culprit - this sort of thing was right up his alley - still, Quantrill lost control of his subordinate. As you very astutely point out, men in combat are very scary - you never know what they might do, really. In both Lawrence and Ft Pillow, the men Quantrill and Forrest led had heavy emotions about the people they were facing. Both commanders knew the fight would be bad. They sure weren't wrong.

 

[Patrick H]

I've thought Quantrill was paddling the same boat Forrest was - both accused of ordering massacres. It's a question of whether and/or when they lost control of their men. Both went to clean out what they perceived to be a troublesome place and a base for enemy operations against civilian as well as military targets.

Diane, thanks for this insight about Forrest and Quantrill. It is very thought-provoking. I think you've made a very reasonable assertion here. There are still people in Missouri who lionize Quantrill rather than demonize him. But it's pretty obvious that the demonizers have "held the floor" for 150 years. I think the real truth will probably never be fully known to us.

Certainly, a genuine tragedy happened to the non-combattants at Lawrence.