William Clarke Quantrill

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

Does participating in this thread make one one of Quantrill's readers?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[leftyhunter]

I don't know how I managed to miss this thread in early May. I've only seen it just now (June 7, late evening hours) for the first time. Many of you already know that the Missouri guerrillas are especially interesting to me. Quantrill's band of guerrillas is probably the most famous of the MO guerrilla bands, but it's by no means the only such organization that fought in Missouri.

Four or five years ago, I would have insisted that Quantrill was as thoroughly evil as so many authors have made him out to be. However, after much more reading and thought, I've come to think of him somewhat differently. There's no doubt he has been demonized. He probably deserves SOME of that, but not all of it.

He did take prisoners and attempt to exchange them. He did parole prisoners. He did shelter some people in Lawrence.
...but, of course, he sometimes executed people.

He lost ultimate control of his command after Lawrence and I believe this is because Anderson and Todd thought Quantrill was too soft, too fair minded and too honorable.

I don't believe there's any evidence that Quantrill ordered 13 year old boys killed at Lawrence, although many writers insist that he ordered the death of anyone old enough to carry a gun. I suspect Bill Anderson was responsible for that order.

I believe the Lawrence raid was originally planned as a specific strike at the headquarters of the Redlegs and Jayhawkers and I believe it had been considered for a very long time. I believe the injury and deaths of some of the guerrillas' sisters and sisters in law in the Kansas City jail collapse changed the raid motive for a lot of the guerrillas. I believe the death of Josephine Anderson (Bill's young sister) altered his personal motive in an extremely dark way. I believe Anderson drew some of the most blood thirsty of the boys to his own command and I don't believe they needed much encouragement from him to run amok at Lawrence. I think we could draw a very similar parallel to the Viet Nam raid on the village of My Lai 4, where the raiders went in expecting to wipe out a VC strong hold and wound up killing practically everything that moved. Quantrill gets to take the blame for what happened in Lawrence because he was still in overall command, but I don't believe he ordered a massacre of civilians. Nevertheless, civilians did get massacred. I can't say without a doubt that Anderson and Todd and their companies were responsible for the excesses at Lawrence, but I think it's a pretty safe bet.

Lawrence soured some very tough guerrilla soldiers who parted with the band and went into regular Confederate service soon afterwards. I believe those men went to Lawrence expecting a military sort of raid and were disgusted by what they witnessed there.. Lawrence also had the effect of ramping up the blood lust of others among the band--most notoriously, those in Anderson's and Todd's companies. Centralia, Rawlings Lane and Goslin's Lane followed soon after. Quantrill did not participate in those actions. Instead, he seems to have taken a break from the war and gone into "semi retirement" in south Howard County, Missouri.

Please realize that all of these musings are conclusions I've drawn from my own reading. I know that many of you will have different views. None of us will ever have anything but our own conclusions about a lot of Quantrill's history. The man was nearly impossible to understand in life. How can we hope to understand him accurately 150 years after his death? We have only the writings of demonizers and apologists and we must somehow draw our own conclusions from those sources.

Regarding the Quantrill remains at Higginsville: Those bones had been in Kansas for a long time. I've read they had been in a private collection at first and later with the state historical society. I can't say whether that much is accurate. They were, indeed buried in the Confederate cemetery at Higginsville and there are two other graves in other locations which bear some of Quantrill's remains.View attachment 70162



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Interesting and well written point of view. On the other hand it may be quite wrong. From Jesse James the last rebel of the Civil War T.J. Stiles Vintage Press p.95 Quantrill led a force of between 150 to 200 men to Lawrence Kn.
"Quantrill led them on a thundering gallop into the center of town."Kill" he ordered"kill and you will make no mistake!" Lawrence should be thoroughly cleansed, and the only waat to kill is to cleanse".
They killed every man and boy they saw. They killed over two hundred people.
Perhaps the Union is morally superior. When Quantril was shot by Terril ,Terril despite his having some flaws did not kill him on the spot although he would have been legally justified by Union policy at the time sice Quantrill was out of uniform. Quantril did receive medical attention. Their is no known incident of Union soldier or guerrillas killing children vs Lawrence ,Kn and Shelton Laural,Nc.
Kn troopers could have conducted an eye for an eye revenge and killed children of Confederate parents but they did not do so.
After the Ft.Pillow massacre their was no official policy that commanders of USCT and Unionist troops from Tn to kill at least enough CSA prisoners to get adequate revenge for Ft. Pillow.
just food for thought.
Leftyhunter

 

[Patrick H]

Lefty, I've seen that "kill" quote in various books. I've got the Stiles book in front of me right now. I used to accept those sorts of accusations without much question. The problem, though, is that Stiles and the other authors don't give a source for the quote. Obviously, Stiles wasn't there to hear Quantrill give the kill order. He's quoting another author, who may be quoting a previous author...and so on and so forth. I think a lot of what we've read about Quantrill goes all the way back to William Elsey Connelley and I think he fabricated some of what he wrote.

But please understand my position: I don't doubt that someone gave that order (or one very similar to it). It might have been Quantrill. It might have been Anderson or Todd. It might have been all three of them. I'm just not convinced that we can attribute it to any of them with certainty.

 

[Jayboss1]

Not really sure how people idolize or consider Quantrill a "hero". He was a murderer and nothing else. He and his band of criminals attacked and murdered 100 plus civilians who were simply living their lives in Lawrence. Also being from Ohio and originally starting out at as a Union partisan like a Jayhawker then suddenly deciding he was a confederate and changing sides said a lot about his character.

 

[hanna260]

Not really sure how people idolize or consider Quantrill a "hero". He was a murderer and nothing else. He and his band of criminals attacked and murdered 100 plus civilians who were simply living their lives in Lawrence. Also being from Ohio and originally starting out at as a Union partisan like a Jayhawker then suddenly deciding he was a confederate and changing sides said a lot about his character.

I don't think anyone here, at least, idolizes or considers Quantrill a hero. But he was a complicated person, living through hell, who probably over the years has taken some flack that he didn't deserve. (Which isn't to say that he didn't deserve some flack! Guy could be brutal.)

 

[Patrick H]

I don't think anyone here, at least, idolizes or considers Quantrill a hero. But he was a complicated person, living through hell, who probably over the years has taken some flack that he didn't deserve. (Which isn't to say that he didn't deserve some flack! Guy could be brutal.)

Hanna, you have managed to express my exact feelings about Quantrill. You did it in lots fewer words than I did, too!

 

[leftyhunter]

Lefty, I've seen that "kill" quote in various books. I've got the Stiles book in front of me right now. I used to accept those sorts of accusations without much question. The problem, though, is that Stiles and the other authors don't give a source for the quote. Obviously, Stiles wasn't there to hear Quantrill give the kill order. He's quoting another author, who may be quoting a previous author...and so on and so forth. I think a lot of what we've read about Quantrill goes all the way back to William Elsey Connelley and I think he fabricated some of what he wrote.

But please understand my position: I don't doubt that someone gave that order (or one very similar to it). It might have been Quantrill. It might have been Anderson or Todd. It might have been all three of them. I'm just not convinced that we can attribute it to any of them with certainty.

You raise a valid point. On the other hand the buck has to stop somewhere. In some states such has Ca we have the felony-murder rule. I am not a lawyer CM Winkler is . If you want you can ask him if per the felony murder rule Quantril would be guilty.
Leftyhunter

 

[Patrick H]

Hey, Lefty,
In Lawrence, Quantrill was still officially in command. Whether he had control over Anderson, Todd, Clements, etc. is more or less a technicality at this point in history. He has to bear the rap. I don't believe he controlled them any more, but that hardly matters. It was his operation from the get-go, and he gets to accept responsibility for what his troops did there. You and I are certainly in agreement about that!

Thinking about all of this for the past couple of days, I guess I wish the demonizing would be spread around a little more. I do think Quantrill gets a bit more than his fair share of demonization. His subordinates get overlooked! To me, it's more a matter of NOT ENOUGH demonizing being heaped on others. I am not real sure that my statement will make sense to everyone on our forum, but I think it will make sense to you. Nowadays, most people look no further than the accusations leveled at Quantrill 150 years ago. If people would look deeper, they'd see that Quantrill had some captains under his command who were far more brutal. But most don't look that deep, so there we have it.

I will look forward to reading many more posts from you!

Patrick

 

[leftyhunter]

Hey, Lefty,
In Lawrence, Quantrill was still officially in command. Whether he had control over Anderson, Todd, Clements, etc. is more or less a technicality at this point in history. He has to bear the rap. I don't believe he controlled them any more, but that hardly matters. It was his operation from the get-go, and he gets to accept responsibility for what his troops did there. You and I are certainly in agreement about that!

Thinking about all of this for the past couple of days, I guess I wish the demonizing would be spread around a little more. I do think Quantrill gets a bit more than his fair share of demonization. His subordinates get overlooked! To me, it's more a matter of NOT ENOUGH demonizing being heaped on others. I am not real sure that my statement will make sense to everyone on our forum, but I think it will make sense to you. Nowadays, most people look no further than the accusations leveled at Quantrill 150 years ago. If people would look deeper, they'd see that Quantrill had some captains under his command who were far more brutal. But most don't look that deep, so there we have it.

I will look forward to reading many more posts from you!

Patrick

With only 150 to 200 men I have to think Quantril knew what was happening. His attack did not work in the sense that the Union and in particular the boys from Kn just came after him harder. In the end of course the Union did get their man. Why Terill just didn't kill Quantril slowly when he had the chance I will never know. Quantril got a better deal at the end then the poor folks he murdered.
Leftyhunter

 

[JaneQuantrill]

Does participating in this thread make one one of Quantrill's readers?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

****! I wish I'd thought of that one. Afterall, I'm Jane Quantrill and I'm an author; with a novel, 'Partners in Time', set in the Civil War. I hope there are millions of Quantrill's Readers!

 

[JaneQuantrill]

Interesting and well written point of view. On the other hand it may be quite wrong. From Jesse James the last rebel of the Civil War T.J. Stiles Vintage Press p.95 Quantrill led a force of between 150 to 200 men to Lawrence Kn.
"Quantrill led them on a thundering gallop into the center of town."Kill" he ordered"kill and you will make no mistake!" Lawrence should be thoroughly cleansed, and the only waat to kill is to cleanse".
They killed every man and boy they saw. They killed over two hundred people.
Perhaps the Union is morally superior. When Quantril was shot by Terril ,Terril despite his having some flaws did not kill him on the spot although he would have been legally justified by Union policy at the time sice Quantrill was out of uniform. Quantril did receive medical attention. Their is no known incident of Union soldier or guerrillas killing children vs Lawrence ,Kn and Shelton Laural,Nc.
Kn troopers could have conducted an eye for an eye revenge and killed children of Confederate parents but they did not do so.
After the Ft.Pillow massacre their was no official policy that commanders of USCT and Unionist troops from Tn to kill at least enough CSA prisoners to get adequate revenge for Ft. Pillow.
just food for thought.
Leftyhunter

When one of Captain Edwin Terrell's men; believed to be John Langford, shot WCQ on May 10th, 1865; they had no idea, at first, who they had mortally wounded. Quantrill was shot in the spine and did not die until June 6th. He was said to have been in pain during that time. Maybe you like that; but I , most definitely, do not!

 

[UKMarkw]

JQ - I don't think that anywhere in Lefty's post does it state he like what happened! Problem is as quite often happens, we view these things in a 21st century way but this incident didn't occur yesterday it happened 150 years ago and attitudes were different , people were different and their idea of right and wrong was different. Again, none of us were there and we rely on a lot of he said, they said.

I am not an officianado on WCQ but there are many statements regarding his brutality and I can only assume that the men who watched him painfully die thought it was accurate recompense for the crimes he committed. We wouldn't do it today but I can't help thinking they would have believed it was an acceptable fate.

 

[leftyhunter]

When one of Captain Edwin Terrell's men; believed to be John Langford, shot WCQ on May 10th, 1865; they had no idea, at first, who they had mortally wounded. Quantrill was shot in the spine and did not die until June 6th. He was said to have been in pain during that time. Maybe you like that; but I , most definitely, do not!

My point was that Terils men knew they had shot CSA guerrillas and had the legal right to finish them off at the spot. They made a surprising choice not to do so especially since Terril was not of pristine moral character to say the least. It would of been less trouble to kill the wounded on the spot has did other Union and CSA soldiers or militia in similar situations.

If WQC had been wounded by those related to the boys and men he had murdered or even by troops from Mo or Kn and they knew who he was it would not be pretty. No body on gods green earth knows what they would do to someone in the same situation if the had the wounded man of the killer of their children without a whole lot of people looking over their shoulder.
Leftyhunter

 

[JaneQuantrill]

My point was that Terils men knew they had shot CSA guerrillas and had the legal right to finish them off at the spot. They made a surprising choice not to do so especially since Terril was not of pristine moral character to say the least. It would of been less trouble to kill the wounded on the spot has did other Union and CSA soldiers or militia in similar situations.

If WQC had been wounded by those related to the boys and men he had murdered or even by troops from Mo or Kn and they knew who he was it would not be pretty. No body on gods green earth knows what they would do to someone in the same situation if the had the wounded man of the killer of their children without a whole lot of people looking over their shoulder.
Leftyhunter

It was just the part about 'Terrell killing him slower and that he deserved for that to happen'. I disagree with that. I understand about Lawrence. I've been there and met folks with relatives who died in that raid.