Who Won the Surrender?

[cash]

https://studycivilwar.wordpress.com/2015/07/06/who-won-the-surrender/

 

[marinegrunt]

I have to say Grant. That the Union won due to Lee's surrender is obvious, but regardless of the negotiations that took place Grant put Lee in the position to have to make them. No general who still has the means to resist and make it count is going to sit for a surrender talk; Lee was already beaten and he knew it.

 

[PeterT]

Perhaps it was a tie. Both were probably tired of the whole sorry saga and now an end was in sight. Lee did well to get the terms he did, Grant to achieve the surrender was prepared to give a little in return. Good discussion matter though.

 

[cash]

I have to say Grant. That the Union won due to Lee's surrender is obvious, but regardless of the negotiations that took place Grant put Lee in the position to have to make them. No general who still has the means to resist and make it count is going to sit for a surrender talk; Lee was already beaten and he knew it.

Once Lee made the decision to surrender he entered into a competition with Grant over the terms of the surrender. Who won that competition?

 

[marinegrunt]

Perhaps it was a tie. Both were probably tired of the whole sorry saga and now an end was in sight. Lee did well to get the terms he did, Grant to achieve the surrender was prepared to give a little in return. Good discussion matter though.

But did Lee want any terms at all? I say no. If the siege at Petersburg didn't take the fight out of the man, nothing would except certain disaster. When he saw his empty wagons and the only road out of town blocked, he knew he'd have to accept whatever Grant gave him.

 

[cash]

When he saw his empty wagons and the only road out of town blocked, he knew he'd have to accept whatever Grant gave him.

Did he? I don't believe he believed that.

 

[marinegrunt]

Once Lee made the decision to surrender he entered into a competition with Grant over the terms of the surrender. Who won that competition?

I have to say Grant, again. What was it he gave up? Some rations and 28,000 prisoners to tend to? Small price to pay for the surrender and banishment of the vaunted Army of Northern Virginia.

 

[marinegrunt]

Did he? I don't believe he believed that.

I do. He may not have liked the idea, but he knew the game was up. His only other option was guerrilla war, and he knew that wouldn't work either.

 

[cash]

I have to say Grant, again. What was it he gave up? Some rations and 28,000 prisoners to tend to? Small price to pay for the surrender and banishment of the vaunted Army of Northern Virginia.

He gave up:

1. Treason trials for Lee, his officers, and his men.
2. The Army of Northern Virginia in prison camps.
3. The entire Army of Northern Virginia undergoing the humiliation of stacking arms and turning over their flags.
4. Anything else he might have thought of to demand.

 

[cash]

I do. He may not have liked the idea, but he knew the game was up. His only other option was guerrilla war, and he knew that wouldn't work either.

He could have fought to the bitter end. What did Longstreet tell Lee when Lee worried about Grant demanding terms Lee could not accept? And what was Lee's reaction to what Longstreet said?

 

[PeterT]

He gave up:

1. Treason trials for Lee, his officers, and his men.
2. The Army of Northern Virginia in prison camps.
3. The entire Army of Northern Virginia undergoing the humiliation of stacking arms and turning over their flags.
4. Anything else he might have thought of to demand.

All good points by both of you so I'll be a fence sitter and opt for a tie .

 

[R. Alex Raines]

Once Lee made the decision to surrender he entered into a competition with Grant over the terms of the surrender. Who won that competition?

Ok, Cash, the question is, what is 'winning' in that 'competition' exactly? Is it a zero-sum game or is it possible that both contestant walked away with something approximating their goals? If the latter, are we weighing who came away with more? And, under what conditions do you imagine Lee walking away from the table? And, under what conditions do you imagine Grant walking away?

Personally, I think both walked away with about everything they could have hoped for. Sure, Grant couldn't convince Lee to bargain on behalf of the entire CSA but that was probably a pipe dream. He got the Army of Northern Virginia to surrender. That was pretty much the ballgame. Meanwhile, what was Lee best case scenario beyond what he received? I mean, maybe it's just the lawyer in me, but Lee negotiated a pardon for his entire Army. I'm a criminal defense attorney and I think we've likely got more here than just me (glares around CWT). How many of you have gotten a single pardon for a client, much less an entire Army?

 

[R. Alex Raines]

All good points by both of you so I'll be a fence sitter and opt for a tie .

Where did you get that list, sir?

 

[R. Alex Raines]

Having read cash's article, I still stand by both or a draw.

 

[Allie]

He gave up:

1. Treason trials for Lee, his officers, and his men.
2. The Army of Northern Virginia in prison camps.
3. The entire Army of Northern Virginia undergoing the humiliation of stacking arms and turning over their flags.
4. Anything else he might have thought of to demand.

I don't see evidence that Grant wanted any of those things.

 

[cash]

Ok, Cash, the question is, what is 'winning' in that 'competition' exactly? Is it a zero-sum game or is it possible that both contestant walked away with something approximating their goals? If the latter, are we weighing who came away with more? And, under what conditions do you imagine Lee walking away from the table? And, under what conditions do you imagine Grant walking away?

That's the crux, isn't it? Could Grant have gotten more? For instance, could he have demanded Lee admit "We were wrong?" Could he have had Lee imprisoned as the price for not imprisoning the other officers and men of the ANV? Could he have included officer sidearms in the terms and taken Lee's sword?

Personally, I think both walked away with about everything they could have hoped for.

There's nothing else Grant could have gotten from Lee?

Sure, Grant couldn't convince Lee to bargain on behalf of the entire CSA but that was probably a pipe dream.

Lee in fact suggested the two men settle the entire war, but that was beyond Grant's purview.

He got the Army of Northern Virginia to surrender. That was pretty much the ballgame. Meanwhile, what was Lee best case scenario beyond what he received? I mean, maybe it's just the lawyer in me, but Lee negotiated a pardon for his entire Army. I'm a criminal defense attorney and I think we've likely got more here than just me (glares around CWT). How many of you have gotten a single pardon for a client, much less an entire Army?

I think Lee got everything he wanted plus more.

 

[cash]

I don't see evidence that Grant wanted any of those things.

Should he have wanted them? Or some of them?

 

[Allie]

Should he have wanted them? Or some of them?

Grant was an officer and a gentleman, and I don't think history would have been improved by his instead being punitive or hateful.

 

[cash]

Grant was an officer and a gentleman, and I don't think history would have been improved by his instead being punitive or hateful.

Officers and gentlemen have demanded more stringent terms of surrender with no problems. Did Grant demand too little?

 

[Albert Sailhorst]

I had some good comments that, I felt, were relevant and historically based (with supporting evidence), but I see they have been discarded out of hand before I could hit "Post Reply", so I am out of this "discussion".......Thanks for the thought provoking premise, anyway......