What does this look like?

[Cpl. Smith]

Great photos

 

[sourdough]

kotkinjs1,

I really do not have more to add. I stand by observations of your gun which were made using two reference books I have, one of which is the book used by RIA (in the link you posted) to assess/verify the gun they were auctioning: Confederate Handguns (Albaugh, Benet, & Simmons 1963), and Confederate Revolvers (William A. Gary 1987).

I don't know what you paid for it, nor do I care as it does not concern this discussion. The RIA gun was hammered down at $21,500 plus auction fee. I think acquiring at least one of these two books would give you a lot of information to possibly satisfy your curiosity. Gary's book has a section at the end of the book about creating/recognizing fakes. There were many gunsmiths in the 1920's and 1930's, when BP revolvers were considered almost worthless, who would use whatever available guns/parts to create a shooter. Historicity was not much of a concern, if at all. You may have a gun with genuine G&G components, namely the frame and the barrel, that fits within this realm.

I thank you for posting the thread along with the many photos you supplied!

Regards,

Jim

 

[kotkinjs1]

Thanks Jim, I"ll have to look up those books!
- Jeremy

 

[kotkinjs1]

Thanks again for the references; I saw Gary has an article PDF online that's interesting (it does say the barrel can show signs of the twisted iron). The book is available from a few places so I"ll order that too. I took a few more photos....got brave and disassembled the frame/triggerguard. There's a chiseled roman numeral in the frame, see below. Also appear to be file marks (?) on the underside of the brass grip strap. There are the single digit number and an R on the grip frames but no other digits under the barrel or under the loading lever. The trigger guard is definitely thicker than on a colt but as you said, not square. Also I got my wife to hold the butts flat on the table. You can see my sad Colt 1851 with the repro loading lever in front, barrel parallel to the table. The barrel of this pistol behind it is definitely raised a few degrees. Definitely not a lot but noticeable. And like from the Rock Island sale we discussed there does seem to be variation on this aspect(?).

 

[sourdough]

You are definitely on a quest, and good for you doing that! I have the Gary .pdf article, and that is but a scant preview to his book.

The hand chiseled Roman numerals on the frame is a new one on me, and I don't think Gary or Albaugh mention that, only on the side of the backstrap under the wood. G&G pistols were handmade so anything could have happened with those markings, which I think are assembly markings. According to those experts, the Roman numerals never exceeded XXX (30). Many firearms makers used assembly marks, to include Colt. I can see the difference in the butt slant between your two guns, but I must say that Colt 1851 Navies had many different grip/gripframe configurations ('51 Colt Navies by Nathan Swayze 1967: another book I think you need!). To me the biggest thing is the wrong trigger guard. Gary is adamant about that.

Good luck, sir!

Jim

 

[kotkinjs1]

Jim - I ordered the Gary book; can't wait to read through it. Aside from that, do you have any idea how I can get it looked at by a more professional eye towards figuring out if it's real, a parts gun like you surmise, or something else? Me reading through the book I'm still afraid won't settle anything barring any big red flags we haven't come across yet. I'm in FL so I don't really have access to any of the annual civil war militaria shows or experts that go to them unfortunately.
Thanks, Jeremy

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Jeremy,
I just sent you a P.M. "conversation" re: the revolver.

 

[Package4]

It appears as if the stamping on the cylinder has been done post pitting; the numbers punched into the steel are too crisp for the amount of corrosion. The numbers being original, the stamping would show corrosion within the stamp, which these do not seem to, but would need to use a glass in person to ascertain.

 

[kotkinjs1]

It appears as if the stamping on the cylinder has been done post pitting; the numbers punched into the steel are too crisp for the amount of corrosion. The numbers being original, the stamping would show corrosion within the stamp, which these do not seem to, but would need to use a glass in person to ascertain.

Sorry these are the best I could do with a little magnifying glass and my cell phone.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

It sure does look like the numbers are stamped over top the pitting. No judgment passed on my part, because those are only photos. I would have to have it in my hands to make a more educated estimate.
J.

 

[Package4]

I agree with @Jobe Holiday the pitting and numbers do not look consistent

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Since we are having a civil discussion about this revolver, I will share some additional thoughts. Has anyone had any experience with an artificial darkening agent that is used on brass to make it look old? I have a bit of experience with it, and that is what the brass on this revolver looks like to me. As an example, look at the area on the frame where it is recessed to allow for capping. It is a good clear photo and I believe the darkened area is artificially applied. I could be completely wrong, and that's OK too, just some other thoughts that haven't been discussed.
J.

 

[Package4]

Since we are having a civil discussion about this revolver, I will share some additional thoughts. Has anyone had any experience with an artificial darkening agent that is used on brass to make it look old? I have a bit of experience with it, and that is what the brass on this revolver looks like to me. As an example, look at the area on the frame where it is recessed to allow for capping. It is a good clear photo and I believe the darkened area is artificially applied. I could be completely wrong, and that's OK too, just some other thoughts that haven't been discussed.
J.

Yes, I have used it on a model carronade I put together some years ago, the barrel was brass and needed to be black iron. I think I still have some around here...…...

https://www.houseofantiquehardware.com/brass-darkening-aging-solution

 

[Package4]

Sorry these are the best I could do with a little magnifying glass and my cell phone.

View attachment 303016View attachment 303017View attachment 303018View attachment 303019View attachment 303020View attachment 303021View attachment 303022View attachment 303023View attachment 303024

I have a M1851 Springfield Cadet, that was sporterized when I purchased it (shortened). I took it to Zimmerman for restocking and replace parts (nosecap & ramrod) with originals. Took a while, but he did a magnificent job, except he re-struck the date on the barrel tang. The piece was used heavily and the re-stamp of the date looks identical to what I see here.

 

[Package4]

You might take it to a metallurgist to see if they can determine when the stampings were made, pre or post pitting, I understand you may have resources you have not thought about. Aside from that you might take it to one of the many Civil War relic shows, the Mansfield Show comes to mind, if you are anywhere near Ohio. Many on this site will be attending and can steer you in the right direction.

Please don't be offended, we want to see the next big find, but we have all been in a position where we wished we either knew more or had some guidance before a purchase. The Lanyard Puller has just that story, when he got out of his swim lane, though I have to admit I was fooled myself. Luckily he was able to get his money back, though the jury is still out, on the forage cap that was with the grouping...…..

 

[kotkinjs1]

No worries Package4, I appreciate all the feedback and advice. I've been collecting for a while but this is the first real 'gamble' I've made. I'm also still waiting for a copy of a reference book to arrive to really start digging into the research too. Maybe I'll dig out my digicam to see if the macro setting can take any clearer, closer photos of the cylinder SNs....or at least go get a better magnifier so I can see it more clearly myself. That's a good idea for a metallurgist....I'll figure out how difficult it'd be to locate one to ask.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

In the field of Metallurgy there is a portable machine that is used to determine the exact metallurgical make-up of materials. It will actually give you the breakdown of the alloys in brass. Sometimes this non-destructive test can help determine if the brass alloy is old, or not. I was with a group years ago who had the use of this piece of equipment for a dat and used it on an assortment of Kentucky Rifles to see what the fittings were alloyed with. It wouldn't be a bad test for this revolver if able to be compared to a known original.

I apologize for not being able to remember the proper name of this testing equipment. Perhaps someone here will know what I am referring to.
J.

 

[hrobalabama]

If I were you, I would forward these photos to Damon Mills in Montgomery, AL. He has a website, Damon Mills Antique guns & Swords.
If it is Confederate, he will tell you right away. I have been an antique gun collector for about 75 years and I know of no one today who is more knowledgeable of antique guns. He is the expert on anything CSA.

 

[UCVRelics]

If I were you, I would forward these photos to Damon Mills in Montgomery, AL. He has a website, Damon Mills Antique guns & Swords.
If it is Confederate, he will tell you right away. I have been an antique gun collector for about 75 years and I know of no one today who is more knowledgeable of antique guns. He is the expert on anything CSA.

I have know Damon for a long time and he is very knowable but I do have to say that if @Lanyard Puller tells you something you need to sit up and listen.

 

[Package4]

I have know Damon for a long time and he is very knowable but I do have to say that if @Lanyard Puller tells you something you need to sit up and listen.

Even though it pains me to say it, the Puller is your go to......