Forrest Was Forrest a Bad Commander?

[GwilymT]

To go a little deeper than this, in north Mississippi and West Tennessee he was the right man at the right place with the right troops at the right time.

It was a back water section of the war staffed variously with a scattering of Federal infantry, garrison troops, and cavalry. The Federal cavalry was fairly substandard, and didn't really have any sense of how to utilize their cavalry in a combined arms body beyond scouting and screening. Forrest's troopers were largely mounted infantry, which had a decided advantage over the Federal cavalry prior to the dissemination of repeating carbines. In Forrest's greatest victories, he would wait for the cavalry to arrive, attack, force the infantry to make a forced march to reach them, and defeat them both in detail. The infantry, exhausted from the forced march and disrupted by the panicked cavalry, made east targets.

In larger set battles of a more conventional nature, Forrest was mediocre at best.

So you're saying that Forrest was really good at beating the second team but when he had to face the first team he was lousy?

 

[GwilymT]

He also became a millionaire in 1800s which is pretty impressive. Even if it was selling slaves that was still something he was much better at than others. As for butting heads... well, everyone hated Bragg and afaik he got along at least ok with Hood.

How did he become a millionaire? What business was he successful in? Heck, I understand he even go some unacknowledged children out of his efforts.

 

[GwilymT]

Climbed to rank of a General from the rank of Private. Must have been doing a good job.

There's a little more to the story. Lots of wealthy guys enlisted as private then raised their own company/battalion/regiment and were all of a sudden colonel. Forrest was one of those guys. He didn't rise from private to high officer status through efforts in the field.

 

[Cavalier]

No expert on N.B.F. myself, but from what I have read I think he's overrated. To paraphrase @Luke Freet above, General LaSalle he's not.

A lot of alleged mischaracterizations, good or bad, seem to be credited to "lost cause" mythology. Maybe this is another one?

John

 

[GwilymT]

No expert on N.B.F. myself, but from what I have read I think he's overrated. To paraphrase @Luke Freet above, General LaSalle he's not.

A lot of alleged mischaracterizations, good or bad, seem to be credited to "lost cause" mythology. Maybe this is another one?

John

Yes. Forrest enlisted as a private then used his own money to raise a cavalry battalion and was commissioned a Colonel. Fans have latched onto this to spin a yarn that Forrest went from Private to General through tough fighting and battlefield promotion. It's a propaganda story.

 

[LematLemat]

Forrest overall seems extremely skilled at certain aspects, and (usually) extremely poor at others.

Forrest consistently drops the ball when tasked with executing conventional cavalry roles (screening, recon, etc) in campaigns such as that of Tullahoma and Chickamauga. In fairness, though, he seems to improve strongly in conventional cavalry roles during the Nashville Campaign by successfully screening the Army of Tennessee's main body during the advance to the Duck River, and by with his relatively-successful rearguard actions during the retreat from Nashville.

His independent command in '64 is effectively a mounted infantry corps (a very interesting concept really). The two-division command not only is partially composed of mounted infantry regiments, but functions in the form of a mounted infantry force. There's no screening or intelligence reporting to superiors necessary, only swift movement coupled with combat usually of an infantry nature. The various raids are for the most part very successful, and the corps' rapid movement and infantry arms make it capable of beating or at least going toe-to-toe with Union infantry, and for the most part beating Union cavalry. Brice's Crossroads is of course the most famous fight against infantry-and-cavalry, but Tupelo despite being a defeat was also a fairly-hard fought battle.

I'd say overall that Forrest's talent was mostly when he was able to function as a mounted infantryman rather than a cavalryman. In terms of performing as a mounted infantryman independent from direct higher command, he seems very talented, but when assigned as a subordinate cavalryman, his performance is usually very perfunctory.

 

[Kurtlg]

I remember Shelby Foote being a big fan of NBF on Ken Burn's The Civil War. I listened to a YouTube piece posted by Rebel Rally Point August 17 ,2020. In it Foote says that NBF used shotguns and pistols with his troops. " The pistol was semi-automatic and the shotguns were double barreled " . OK , the lesson is of course that a novelist is not an expert on firearms , but just maybe he wasn't such an expert on NBF either.

 

[jackt62]

Forrest is probably best credited with being a raider, although the results of his efforts to interdict federal supply and communication lines in Tennessee and Mississippi never accomplished anything more than being annoying pinpricks.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I agree with all comments about Nathan's tactical v. strategic importance.
I don't think the CSA "High Command" ever considered NBF strategic.

Tactically brilliant (even against the Yankee B-team), Forrest gave Sherman nightmares.

The man was never an angel, but he was not lucifer either.

I encourage anyone interested in NBF to look at some of the threads in the current Forrest forum.

 

[breckod]

I think the point about Forrest giving Sherman "nightmares" is a bit overstated. Anyone familiar with Sherman's writing habits is aware the man regularly employed hyperbole. His material impact or lack thereof on Sherman's operations seems more important to me.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Anyone familiar with Sherman's writing habits is aware the man regularly employed hyperbole.

Thanks for the explanation about Sherman's writing habits.
Sound's like he he was very into hyperpole.

One classic Sherman quote ...

"make up a force and go out to follow Forrest to the death, if it cost 10,000 lives and breaks the Treasury."

NPS - Page In-Progress

www.nps.gov

That comment makes Sherman sound a bit nervous about Forrest.

 

[breckod]

Thanks for the explanation about Sherman's writing habits.
Sound's like he he was very into hyperpole.

One classic Sherman quote ...

"make up a force and go out to follow Forrest to the death, if it cost 10,000 lives and breaks the Treasury."

NPS - Page In-Progress

www.nps.gov

That comment makes Sherman sound a bit nervous about Forrest.

I say that Sherman was often hyperbolic, and your reply is to cite an example of Sherman being hyperbolic. Okay?

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

No expert on N.B.F. myself, but from what I have read I think he's overrated. To paraphrase @Luke Freet above, General LaSalle he's not.

A lot of alleged mischaracterizations, good or bad, seem to be credited to "lost cause" mythology. Maybe this is another one?

John

What is "lost cause" mythology? I hear that frequently these days. Please note, I'm not trying to flame or anything along those lines. I am not on Facebook and I avoid Twitter and other social media, so I am not au courant with the zeitgeist.

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

I say that Sherman was often hyperbolic, and your reply is to cite an example of Sherman being hyperbolic. Okay?

Would it be fair to say that Sherman expressed his nervousness (please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this cause him some professional challenges earlier in his storied career?) in a hyperbolic manner? Perhaps that's what my almost-neighbor in Mississippi meant.

 

[breckod]

Would it be fair to say that Sherman expressed his nervousness (please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this cause him some professional challenges earlier in his storied career?) in a hyperbolic manner? Perhaps that's what my almost-neighbor in Mississippi meant.

I'm saying Sherman's language was often dramatic like this, yes. Some others seem to take it as proof of something.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I say that Sherman was often hyperbolic, and your reply is to cite an example of Sherman being hyperbolic. Okay?

My reply was only quotes of Sherman's words.

It will always "sound" to me that Sherman was very nervous about Bedford galloping around in his rear.

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

I'm saying Sherman's language was often dramatic like this, yes. Some others seem to take it as proof of something.

And these "others" are incorrect to regard Sherman's hyperbole as signifying anything other than an tendency toward dramatic language?

 

[breckod]

My reply only quotes Sherman's words.

It will always "sound" to me that Sherman was very nervous about Bedford galloping around in his rear.

That's fine and all, but the effect of Forrest's operations on Sherman's was...?

And these "others" are incorrect to regard Sherman's hyperbole as signifying anything other than an tendency toward dramatic language?

Not sure what's with the scare quotes, but 7th Mississippi seems to feel Sherman's comments prove some significance to Forrest that just isn't there.

 

[GwilymT]

What is "lost cause" mythology? I hear that frequently these days. Please note, I'm not trying to flame or anything along those lines.

Lost Cause of the Confederacy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I'm saying Sherman's language was often dramatic like this, yes. Some others seem to take it as proof of something.

Actually you just described all of the pro/con arguments about Nathan Bedford Forrest.