Forrest Was Forrest a Bad Commander?

[UCVRelics]

Brice's Crossroads

Yep, complete BS. If you want to know the REAL story I would suggest

Life of Lieutenant-General Nathan Bedford Forrest : Wyeth, John A. (John Allan), 1845-1922 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xix, [1] p., 1 l., 23 cm

archive.org

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Eric Wittenberg has come up more than once in this thread. I think most hold him in high regard as an expert in CW cavalry.

I'll give this fellow his due.

The man is an expert on
Civil War cavalry.

I think most hold him in high regard

Nope, not at all.

Wittenberg doesn't hold Forrest in high regard as a commander.

Gawd ... he hates Forrest.


He used to almost have a stroke if someone referred to NBF as a Cavalry General.

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

I hear ya !

Other than the many amateur military historians on this forum, I honestly doubt an average American has ever heard of Austerlitz.

Well, over the past few years I've come to the dreary conclusion that most Americans are not particularly well informed about anything (except maybe sportball), and those things they think they know, tend to be hilariously wrong. Parents, teach your kids.

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

I'll give this fellow his due.

The man is an expert on
Civil War cavalry.


Nope, not at all.

Gawd ... he hates Forrest.


He used to almost have a stroke if someone referred to NBF as a Cavalry General.

He hates Forrest and wants everyone to know it.

Round of applause please.

It's all so tiresome. Just mockery and trolling, no real contributions to the discussion.

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

No offense intended to Wittenberg, but I believe his area of expertise is more in the east than in the west.

Well, that's fine, but the only thing I took from Wittenburg's book was the quote by Gen Grant, in which Sam placed Sheridan in Valhalla with Bonaparte and "Alte Fritz." And, as I said, I am not claiming (as some do with Forrest, because he was a thoroughly bad man and, as Taylor Swift tweeted a few years ago, a "brutal slave trader"'; see the posts by Gwilym (sic) and the Slate piece) that he (Sheridan) was a fifth-rate, overrated commander. My only point was that Sheridan should not be considered a military talent of the stature of Napoleon and Frederick the Great. For that matter, I don't think any American was on the level of Bonaparte as a leader. (Please note, I'm not a Bonaparte fanboy, but like him or not, he was certainly one of the most brilliant men who ever drew breath and, I think, indisputably the Greatest Captain of history.) But if you'd care to support Grant's argument, I'm all ears - it would be very interesting.

 

[rpkennedy]

I'll give this fellow his due.

The man is an expert on
Civil War cavalry.


Nope, not at all.

Gawd ... he hates Forrest.


He used to almost have a stroke if someone referred to NBF as a Cavalry General.

In a previous generation, Forrest would have made an outstanding dragoon commander. By the time of the Civil War, specialized cavalry had begun to be phased out with the regular cavalry taking on all of those roles.

Ryan

 

[rpkennedy]

Well, that's fine, but the only thing I took from Wittenburg's book was the quote by Gen Grant, in which Sam placed Sheridan in Valhalla with Bonaparte and "Alte Fritz." And, as I said, I am not claiming (as some do with Forrest, because he was a thoroughly bad man and, as Taylor Swift tweeted a few years ago, a "brutal slave trader"'; see the posts by Gwilym (sic) and the Slate piece) that he (Sheridan) was a fifth-rate, overrated commander. My only point was that Sheridan should not be considered a military talent of the stature of Napoleon and Frederick the Great. If you'd care to argue he should be, I'm all ears - it would be very interesting.

Wittenburg doesn't have much good to say about Sheridan either, in all fairness.

Ryan

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

Wittenburg doesn't have much good to say about Sheridan either, in all fairness.

Ryan

Again, I only took the Grant quote from that book. And as far as the book itself, I thought it Wittenberg's negativity toward Lil Phil was overdone, and I didn't really buy a lot of his arguments. Though I must say as Union cavalry commanders go, I always had an admiration and liking for Custer, Little Big Horn and all. The man had the courage of a lion.

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

In a previous generation, Forrest would have made an outstanding dragoon commander. By the time of the Civil War, specialized cavalry had begun to be phased out with the regular cavalry taking on all of those roles.

Ryan

Yes indeed - the mass charges of the Cuirassiers that characterized the Napoleonic Wars was a thing of the past, thanks to the rifled musket. A charge like Murat's at Eylau would not have be possible in the Civil War.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

The man raised a corps of cavalry almost from scratch

Define "raised." Recruited the regiments, or just assembled a bunch of previously separate regiments and brigades into a single corps?

No reason to not read something.

Even if the book or article is free, one's time is finite. Time is best not wasted.

General Robert E Lee stated that the best Southern Cavalry Commander there was, is General Nathan Bedford Forrest.

Citation Needed.

Also, how would be know if NBF was good or bad at cavalry? They never met or even served in the same state.

 

[rpkennedy]

Again, I only took the Grant quote from that book. And as far as the book itself, I thought it Wittenberg's negativity toward Lil Phil was overdone, and I didn't really buy a lot of his arguments. Though I must say as Union cavalry commanders go, I always had an admiration and liking for Custer, Little Big Horn and all. The man had the courage of a lion.

The courage of a lion but often the sense of a donkey. He had a tendency to leap before looking and only good luck saved him on a number of occasions where he may have had a premature last stand.

Ryan

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Deleted

At least when History PhDs insult him they have some credentials to try to back it up. Just saying.

His cavalry books cover both Union and Confederate evenly.

If you can recommend a better expert on Western Theater cavalry please do so.

No offense intended to Wittenberg, but I believe his area of expertise is more in the east than in the west.

While he's predominately written about Virginia, he has written about cavalry operations in the Tullahoma campaigns and on the first day of Chickamauga. He's also written about cavalry in the Carolinas Campaign. He also started researching Grierson's Raid, but didn't complete the project because Timothy Smith beat him to the punch and hit it out of the park. I think he's also mentioned some research on Abraham Buford due to him being related to John Buford.

I would imagine he's also talked cavalry with collaborator Dave Powell, who wrote an entire book on Forrest's and Wheeler's screwups at Chickamauga.

I don't think Forrest and Sheridan, probably Eric Wittenberg's two least favorite cavalry generals of the war, have much in common, but it's that one main commonality that makes Eric despise them: they were both neglectful of their duties as cavalry officers due to their thirst for a good fight.

Again, I only took the Grant quote from that book. And as far as the book itself, I thought it Wittenberg's negativity toward Lil Phil was overdone, and I didn't really buy a lot of his arguments. Though I must say as Union cavalry commanders go, I always had an admiration and liking for Custer, Little Big Horn and all. The man had the courage of a lion.

Little Phil is probably Wittenberg's worst book because, by his own admission, it's basically a prosecutor's legal brief. All of his other works are straightforward histories, and excellent.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Since someone else has already brought up The Lost Cause, I will add this: few Confederates fit the Lost Cause narrative as well as NBF. Plucky, aggressive, uneducated, simple-minded Southern man runs circles around his Yankee opponents, outfoxing and bedeviling them while consistently winning fights against superior numbers. That superficial summary is a big reason why Shelby Foote and so many others adore him.

 

[leftyhunter]

Agree with almost all of this. I always felt that Forrest was one of the most overhyped personalities of the war. He mostly fought in small actions that really hade very little effect on the course of the war. He was more of a nuisance than anything else.

Not sure about that. Besides the Sherman quote by @19thGeorgia Forrest's tactics were studied at West Point well into the 20th Century. Forrest was an excellent commander who was also visited by US Army officers post war. Of course has Lt General Pershing said " Generals win battles logistics wins wars". Also by 1864 the Union cavalry simply outmatched the Confederate cavalry and or mounted infantry in numbers, logistics and better fire arms. Forrest did we could with what he had that's all a commander can do.
Leftyhunter

 

[tony_gunter]

So you're saying that Forrest was really good at beating the second team but when he had to face the first team he was lousy?

It's not even that. The situation dictated that he command massed mounted infantry, and the federal war fighting doctrine didn't have any answer for it until the cavalry began receiving repeating carbines.

 

[Rebforever]

Myth he wasn't! Sold slaves and had different rules then others slavers for purchasing and selling.
Gave blacks their freedom if they fought with him which they did.
Used his own money to organize his army.

General Sherman was scared of him and the way he fought.
He was a true Patriot for a cause.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

as Taylor Swift tweeted a few years ago

"Taylor Swift" tweeted.



Yeah, she's Drop Dead Gorgeous.

But as lil' Taylor is such beautiful girl, I doubt anyone thinks about
her knowledge of history.

She may know more about Nathan Bedford than any of us.

 

[breckod]

I don't rate Sheridan highly at all, but it's not hard to figure out why Grant thought highly of him. Grant hadn't worked in conjunction with cavalry in their traditional and supporting roles in the west, so Sheridan's failings in those areas didn't really register with him. From Grant's perspective, Sheridan talked and acted the way he wished more AotP officers would, and he got results in the Valley and Appomattox.

(Just giving Grant's PoV its due there, I think Sheridan had useful qualities but was also an odious bully and his insubordination to Meade should not have been tolerated)

 

[Desert Kid]

General Robert E Lee stated that the best Southern Cavalry Commander there was, is General Nathan Bedford Forrest.
View attachment 479665

Is that bumper sticker even still getable?

 

[leftyhunter]

Agree with almost all of this. I always felt that Forrest was one of the most overhyped personalities of the war. He mostly fought in small actions that really hade very little effect on the course of the war. He was more of a nuisance than anything else.

Not sure about that. Besides the Sherman quote by @19thGeorgia Forrest's tactics were studied at West Point well into the 20th Century. Forrest was an excellent commander who was also visited by US Army officers post war. Of course has Lt General Pershing said " Generals win battles logistics wins wars". Also by 1864 the Union cavalry simply outmatched the Confederate cavalry and or mounted infantry in numbers, logistics and better fire arms. Forrest did we could with what he had that's all a commander can do.
Lefyhunter

Myth he wasn't! Sold slaves and had different rules then others slavers for purchasing and selling.
Gave blacks their freedom if they fought with him which they did.
Used his own money to organize his army.

General Sherman was scared of him and the way he fought.
He was a true Patriot for a cause.

No evidence that any person of color fought with Forrest only that they served in support roles. Few if any Afro Americans actually fought the Confederate Army.
Leftyhunter