US Naval power

[Will Carry]

Any vessel that ran on coal was limited in range and could not venture far beyond it's source of fuel. A vessel that depended on wind did not suffer that limitation. The logistics of fueling the fleet was one of the new aspects of modern navies. U.S Navies Admiral Ghormley (WWII) had to build an infrastructure that could support a fleet out of one of the most desolate areas of the planet. It drove him to exhaustion and he was relieved of command after he transformed the South Pacific.

 

[USS ALASKA]

The vast majority of the Royal Navy was obsolete. Even if it got here, they'd have a hard time if a monitor came out and challenged them. We also had the USS Ironsides, an ironclad frigate.

Have heard this type of comment before at varying times in history. This was stated when the HMS Dreadnought was commissioned in 1906. 1 ship does not an overpowering force make. Until there are enough vessels of this new type available to overpower all the remaining obsolete ships in formation, it can be defeated by sheer numbers of lesser weapon systems. Something about quantity having its own quality...and creating something that others can replicate just sets everyone's clock back to zero. At that point in time, building capacity becomes the deciding factor which the UK has a tremendous advantage.
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Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[USS ALASKA]

Thanks for putting this together for me, will give me some good reading.

An outstanding book that covers this time period is 'Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships, 1860-1905' by Roger Chesneau. Just comparing the pages and pages and pages of RN ships compared to what the USN had available in 1865 shows what a daunting task this would have been.

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[USS ALASKA]

Also, forgot @DaveBrt 's thread - https://civilwartalk.com/threads/smooth-bore-against-ironclads.125707/#post-1357546

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[Waterloo50]

The vast majority of the Royal Navy was obsolete. Even if it got here, they'd have a hard time if a monitor came out and challenged them. We also had the USS Ironsides, an ironclad frigate.

You're not being serious...right!

 

[gary]

Wooden steam frigates were obsolete when steam powered ironclads came into service. The French were the first with the Gloire which was responded to in kind with the HMS Warrior (she's still around as restored museum ship).

While one of our monitors did sail across the Atlantic, the vast majority with their low freeboard were restricted to coastal operations and suitable for coastal defense. They could perform that job admirably against any challenge and it would be madness to pit a wood ship against a monitor.

BTW, I have Conway's series of books and they are excellent for an overview of the navies and their ships. Don't have the modern one (post 1945).

 

[wausaubob]

Armor is a big innovation. However with a few years people realized that the ship with the heaviest guns, and the most accurate fire could crack the armor. The realization would have been faster if the issue had been more relevant. In the US Civil War it did not become relevant because the US captured most of the places at which the Confederates could build ironclads.

 

[wausaubob]

Ships are very valuable. But they become valuable when used by commanders and sailors who are skilled in what they do.

 

[USS ALASKA]

Warship development kinda / sorta stagnated for a long time. Then the whole industrial revolution thingy began to have it's way with big evolutions in warship technology in the 1800s. With the advanvements in propulsion / armor / armament / and later in the 1800s - the use of electricity, the later part of the century provided for a great deal of flux in the fields of naval design and procurement. Some innovations proved worthy, others dead-ends.

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[rebelatsea]

Wooden steam frigates were obsolete when steam powered ironclads came into service. The French were the first with the Gloire which was responded to in kind with the HMS Warrior (she's still around as restored museum ship).

While one of our monitors did sail across the Atlantic, the vast majority with their low freeboard were restricted to coastal operations and suitable for coastal defense. They could perform that job admirably against any challenge and it would be madness to pit a wood ship against a monitor.

BTW, I have Conway's series of books and they are excellent for an overview of the navies and their ships. Don't have the modern one (post 1945).

How many more times am I going to have to repeat this : WOODEN STEAM FRIGATES DID NOT BECOME OBSOLETE WHEN STEAM POWERED IRONCLADS CAME INTO SERVICE - THEY EVOLVED INTO CRUISING SHIPS AND EVENTUALLY INTO THE WWI AND WWII CRUISERS.

 

[Will Carry]

I am a big fan of naval history. The technological development from 1861 to 1945 is incredible. I love looking at photographs of these wooden ships and iron men, the ships of sail and their magnificent pinnacle, the clippers. Then the coal burners and early dreadnoughts.
The Royal Navy would have had a hard time with the US Navy if they came to our shores. They couldn't have gotten any European iron clads across the pond.......boss alert, see ya.

 

[USS ALASKA]

They couldn't have gotten any European iron clads across the pond

Sir, curious on why you would think this. HMS Warrior and HMS Black Prince open ocean voyages to Bermuda were a figment of the imagination? From there it is less than 800 miles to the American coast. Both ship had a range of 2100 miles on coal alone.
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Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[gary]

Keep repeating it please. You'll wear out your keyboard. Wood frigates can't take on the Monitor. Nelson's ship-of-the line HMS Victory can't take on the Monitor. Now, if you're arguing ships evolve, that never stopped.

 

[USS ALASKA]

Wood frigates can't take on the Monitor. Nelson's ship-of-the line HMS Victory can't take on the Monitor.

Sir, they don't have to. Why would they come inshore to Monitor's primary operational envelope when to accomplish their mission, all they need to do is remain 10 miles or so off-shore?

Wood frigates can't take on the Monitor. Nelson's ship-of-the line HMS Victory can't take on the Monitor.

A modern steam frigate vs Monitor one-on-one in the open ocean? That is going to be an interesting fight. And enough of them will overwhelm Monitor. And the RN had enough. But why bother...? All of these can go head-to-head...

Warrior
Black Prince
Defence
Resistance
Hector
Valiant
Achilles
Minotaur
Agincourt
Northumberland
Prince Consort
Caledonia
Ocean
Royal Oak
Royal Alfred
Research
Enterprise
Favorite
Zealous
Repulse
Lord Clyde
Lord Warden
Pallas
Bellerophon

Please gents - before we go down an already beaten path, take a look at the other threads with the posts by @67th Tigers and @Saphroneth among others...

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[67th Tigers]

A modern steam frigate vs Monitor one-on-one in the open ocean? That is going to be an interesting fight. And enough of them will overwhelm Monitor. And the RN had enough. But why bother...? All of these can go head-to-head...

As one wag once joked over a decade ago to me in a debate, a frigate doesn't need to fight Monitor. It just needs to steam past at maximum speed and let her bow wave inundate her...

 

[wausaubob]

The British had already demonstrated they could create havoc for the US on the Atlantic coast. The difficulties would have been on the Great Lakes and in the northern Pacific.

 

[USS ALASKA]

The difficulties would have been on the Great Lakes and in the northern Pacific.

Granted, Esquimalt is probably THE most isolated RN base at that time. Force projection into the Northern Pacific - especially Eastern Northern Pacific will be problematic. And then RN landing parties take Hawaii...
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Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[USS ALASKA]

Any vessel that ran on coal was limited in range and could not venture far beyond it's source of fuel.

...like the USS Monitor...unlike the ship-rigged Armored Frigate of the HMS Warrior class and her immediate sisters.

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[Rank and File]

Reading Raphael Semmes book (Confederate Raider Alabama). He didn't think too much of the USN, but then, he also didn't think much of the Union either.
Love these What If arguments....

 

[gary]

I am very aware of the iron ships of the RN. I've been aboard the Warrior on Portsmouth and have Conways as well as a bookcase filled with books on naval subjects.

That said, sailing a fleet here and maintaining it here are two different things. The RN needs a chain of colliers either out of Canada or the Caribbean or both. The Canada one will be harder to defend against a land invasion. If the Royal Navy doesn't get that chain of colliers with coal, they've got no navy. Best the RN could do is a blockade - temporarily. Suggested reading: War Plan Orange. Orange was the color denoting Japan but we also wargamed Red (England/Commonwealth). Same logistics apply.

Teddy Roosevelt's sailing of the Great White Fleet around the globe was an immense logistical challenge. Coaling had to be arranged along the way along with ships or ports for food provisions. Dewey's squadron at Manila Bay could have been a disaster too but luckily for him it turned out well.