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US M1861 Springfield - Need some help on markings

Discussion in 'Civil War Weapons and Ammunition' started by cwbuff, Feb 7, 2018.

  1. cwbuff

    cwbuff Private

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    cartouche marks.jpg
    FH.jpg

    These pics are from one of my US M1961 Springfields (dated 1862). The first image shows 2 cartouche marks. I know the lower one is ESA (Erskine S. Allin). What is the upper cartouche? The second image shows and "FH" below the tang of the trigger guard. Who's mark is that? Thanks.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2018

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  3. Banjo Pete

    Banjo Pete Private

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    No idea but man-oh-man does that look like a nice example.

    May we see the rest, please ?
     
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  4. ucvrelics.com

    ucvrelics.com 1st Lieutenant Forum Host

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    It looks if its a KLH which is unlisted as an Unknown in the US Military inspectors list for the Springfield. I need to see the markings on the lock-plate to be sure. BTW VERY NICE markings. We would love to see the whole musket!!!!
     
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  5. Specster

    Specster Sergeant Major

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    Im no expert but I have seen many Springfields and IMO the Fonts are way off and the rifle, if ever used in war, is way too prestine . Even if it were not used it would seem to be kept under museum conditions
     
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  6. Specster

    Specster Sergeant Major

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    Hope that [​IMG] will enlighten us. Trust him above all others
     
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  7. 19Wyoming

    19Wyoming Private

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    39B6EB79-AC7D-49DC-B23E-EBD29AF35D8E.jpeg


    Cartouches are correct. Not sure what the letters are in the rectangle. But here’s another.
     
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  8. Craig L Barry

    Craig L Barry Sergeant Major

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    Thanks for the kind words but it is tough to make much of a determination with the limited number of images posted so far.
     
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  9. cwbuff

    cwbuff Private

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    Here are some more pics.
    DSC_0006.jpg DSC_0007.jpg DSC_0012.jpg DSC_0013.jpg DSC_0015.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

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  10. cwbuff

    cwbuff Private

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    I think the upper oval-end, boxed cartouche with script letters may be "HSH" inside the box. The "HSH" initials stand for Springfield Armory Inspector, H. S. Hill. I have a hard time with the script cartouches.

    For the "FH", I found a reference for Fred Hanvey 1862.
     
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  11. cwbuff

    cwbuff Private

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    For comparison to the picture of the muzzle/front sight above, here is the best picture I have of what the original armory finish looked like - specifically around the front sight. From a friend's M1861.
    mint armory burnishing.jpg
     
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  12. Jobe Holiday

    Jobe Holiday Sergeant Major

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    I also came up with HSH, (H.S. Hill) a Springfield Sub-Inspector shown for 1875. But, I don't think the list I used is all-inclusive for years served, but rather just a single snapshot in time. And, a gorgeous musket, by the way!
    J.
     
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  13. cwbuff

    cwbuff Private

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    Thanks for the help.
     
  14. Michael W.

    Michael W. First Sergeant

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    Man, that is a NICE example. Sweet.
     
  15. originalrebelyell

    originalrebelyell Sergeant

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    That is a real nice Springfield.
     
  16. Craig L Barry

    Craig L Barry Sergeant Major

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    That looks like a nice minty original US 1861 to my eye. The overall condition is surprising given the relatively early lock plate date of 1862 but look at the clean out screw and how it protrudes slightly from the bolster...the clean-out screw on the Italian reproductions are flush with the bolster and so on. If it is not the real deal, it does not appear to be a garden variety de-farbed US model 1861 reproduction. A very nice piece.
     
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  17. cwbuff

    cwbuff Private

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    Here are some pics of it's "safe mate". I bought this one before the one above. But the one above was almost pristine, so I bought it. Look at the last pic. Does any one know what those markings are on the wood above the butt plate? The letters are CVUG over 56. If a GAR Post number, I'd love to know which one.
    IMG_0205.jpg IMG_0212.jpg IMG_0209.jpg IMG_0208.jpg IMG_0215.jpg IMG_0217.jpg IMG_0211.jpg
     
  18. FrankN

    FrankN Private

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    What amazing looking muskets! The rifling must look really crisp!

    Frank
     
  19. Craig L Barry

    Craig L Barry Sergeant Major

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    US 1861s were very highly regarded and sought after. As a result, they were sometimes issued almost as a form of patronage (of sorts) to certain units not necessarily based on the needs of front line troops, but almost it seems as a reward or a recruiting tool. There is that famous example that is found in "History of the First-Tenth-Twenty-ninth Maine Regiment," by Maj. John M. Gould; (1871), page 89.

    "Oct. 21st [1861], new muskets were delivered to the men, and this furnished another excuse for a hearty growl from the 1st Mainers. "Had we not been promised a new blue uniform and Springfield muskets?" To be sure we had the blue uniform and a good outfit in every way, "but look at these Enfield muskets," said they, "with their blued barrels and wood that no man can name!" They were not a bad weapon, however, differing little from the Springfield, in actual efficiency, weight, length, and caliber, but far behind in point of workmanship. For a while we kept them blued, then orders were issued to rub them bright and we kept them so ever after."


    It is worth noting that the 90 day 1st Maine troops reenlisted partially on the promise of receiving new US model 1861s if they did so, having just turned in their US 1855s. Whatever the case, clearly these two US 1861s did not see the same hard use as many other surviving examples. Or perhaps they were just very well maintained. Whatever the case, these are both very nice specimens. You are fortunate to have them in your collection.
     
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  20. cwbuff

    cwbuff Private

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    Regarding only the M1861 muskets made at Springfield Armory -- has anyone ever estimated how many survive to this day?

    PS: I had a chance to buy a minty M1861 dated 1861 and passed on it because I had these two already and it was big bucks. In retrospect, should have sold one of mine and bought it.
     
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  21. cwbuff

    cwbuff Private

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    Since you all like to look at pics, I thought I'd post a few on this musket. This M1795 Harpers Ferry predates the Civil War, having been made in 1815. It is an unaltered flintlock. It is one of my favorites in remarkable condition and Ohio surcharged (my home state). I love the hand made screws. You can see to original armory polish on the parts under the old dried grease and oil. I wondered why it was in such good shape over all these years. Then I discovered it is loaded. I tried to remove the ball, but no luck.
    F031-01.jpg F031-05.jpg F031-06.jpg F031-07.jpg F031-09.jpg F031-13.jpg F031-15.jpg F031-26.jpg F031-29.jpg
     

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