Grant US Grant ethics?

[archieclement]

Prove your conclusion please.
You stated that Grant resigned over his drinking. Prove it

In that its its in Chernow biography Grant told Buchanan he would resign if he didn't get control of his drinking, he didnt ,and he resigned.

If you have proof otherwise to a reason, you prove it, as again your jumping in as if you have some axe to grind. Though its actually irrelevant as the resignation demonstrates officers could and did resign, regardless of if you think he resigned for some other "x" reason, so certainly he could have submitted a resignation if he had moral concerns earlier.

If you have an axe to grind with Chernow its noted, I dont.

 

[damYankee]

In that its its in Chernow biography Grant told Buchanan he would resign if he didn't get control of his drinking, he didnt ,and he resigned.

If you have proof otherwise to a reason, you prove it, as again your jumping in as if you have some axe to grind. Though its actually irrelevant as the resignation demonstrates officers could and did resign, regardless of if you think he resigned for some other "x" reason, so certainly he could have submitted a resignation if he had moral concerns earlier.

If you have an axe to grind with Chernow its noted, I dont.

I agree, many resigned because of the terrible pay and living conditions and the lack of advancement.
Have you ever worked far from home under these conditions?
When there is little or no opportunity to advance you in career, as an example, just look how it took Lee to get promoted, Lee!
The Man Who Walks On Water, took him 36 (?) years to make Col.?
One of my former supervisors was a retired Col. who was on Powell's staff during Desert Storm, a West Point grad, who told me the reason he resigned after 30 was, if your a West Point man, and you haven't made general officer by 30 years, you never will.
Grant was honest about his propensity to drink when depressed;
"the vice of intemperance (drunkenness) had not a little to do with my decision to resign."

We have beaten this horse to death, are there any others we should assail with as much vigor?

 

[DanSBHawk]

I agree, many resigned because of the terrible pay and living conditions and the lack of advancement.
Have you ever worked far from home under these conditions?
When there is little or no opportunity to advance you in career, as an example, just look how it took Lee to get promoted, Lee!
The Man Who Walks On Water, took him 36 (?) years to make Col.?
One of my former supervisors was a retired Col. who was on Powell's staff during Desert Storm, a West Point grad, who told me the reason he resigned after 30 was, if your a West Point man, and you haven't made general officer by 30 years, you never will.
Grant was honest about his propensity to drink when depressed;
"the vice of intemperance (drunkenness) had not a little to do with my decision to resign."

We have beaten this horse to death, are there any others we should assail with as much vigor?

Without going on a tangent, Chernow has been criticized by other historians by his handling of Grant's drinking. His claims are based on very limited evidence and are mostly accounts from years after Grant's death. There's no reliable evidence that Grant resigned because of drinking. Here's a source who dissects some of Chernow's claims:

Was Ulysses S. Grant An Alcoholic? An Analysis of Claims Made by Ron Chernow

Ulysses S. Grant has often been portrayed in textbooks and popular histories as an alcoholic, a drunkard, or at the very least someone who enjoyed a good drink from time to time. It may be safe to …

pastexplore.wordpress.com

"This entire passage is a hot mess of secondhand recollections. It is far from "overwhelming," as Chernow suggests. There are no official Army records confirming a possible court martial for Grant. Haller, Poore, and Anderson cannot be relied up since they were not there to see what actually happened and were commenting fifty years later on what they heard secondhand. Moreover, where's any commentary from Buchanan? It is also noteworthy that not everyone present at Fort Humboldt at the time agreed that Grant had a drinking issue."

 

[archieclement]

I agree, many resigned because of the terrible pay and living conditions and the lack of advancement.
Have you ever worked far from home under these conditions?
When there is little or no opportunity to advance you in career, as an example, just look how it took Lee to get promoted, Lee!
The Man Who Walks On Water, took him 36 (?) years to make Col.?
One of my former supervisors was a retired Col. who was on Powell's staff during Desert Storm, a West Point grad, who told me the reason he resigned after 30 was, if your a West Point man, and you haven't made general officer by 30 years, you never will.
Grant was honest about his propensity to drink when depressed;
"the vice of intemperance (drunkenness) had not a little to do with my decision to resign."

We have beaten this horse to death, are there any others we should assail with as much vigor?

The real point is in many indeed resigned, honestly don't think I've came across a resignation submitted and ultimately denied during that era.

So as far as the ethical question, If Grant or any other officer had a moral issue with the Mexican War, the resignation option was a viable one, and likely would been accepted.

Indeed a decade later when many had a moral issue with possibly fighting their native states, resignations were accepted despite that those resigning might bear arms against the US.

 

[DanSBHawk]

The real point is in many indeed resigned, honestly don't think I've came across a resignation submitted and ultimately denied during that era.

Have you looked?

Again, this is from a letter that Grant wrote home in September 1847: At present Gen. Scott will let no officer leave who is able for duty not even if he tenders his resignation. So you see it is not so easy to get out of the wars as it is to get into them.

 

[archieclement]

Have you looked?

Again, this is from a letter that Grant wrote home in September 1847: At present Gen. Scott will let no officer leave who is able for duty not even if he tenders his resignation. So you see it is not so easy to get out of the wars as it is to get into them.

Yes as i have came across many resignations, and I said not one that was denied.

That passage provides none that were actually denied.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Yes as i have came across many resignations, and I said not one that was denied.

That passage provides none that were actually denied.

So you have come across "many resignations" from US officers in Mexico during that war?

 

[archieclement]

So you have come across "many resignations" from US officers in Mexico during that war?

No didn't say I had, I said of era, neither have I came across any denials during the era. You haven't provided any, do you have some?

 

[DanSBHawk]

No didn't say I had, I said of era, neither have I came across any denials during the era. You haven't provided any, do you have some?

Okay, that's what I thought.

 

[Cavalier]

Not a big fan of Grant necessarily, sitting on the fence about him mostly, but if he had resigned just as we were going to war with Mexico how would that have effected his reputation as far as facing combat is concerned? Shades of The Four Feathers, if you get my drift.

John

 

[A. Roy]

Not a big fan of Grant necessarily, sitting on the fence about him mostly, but if he had resigned just as we were going to war with Mexico how would that have effected his reputation as far as facing combat is concerned? Shades of The Four Feathers, if you get my drift.

John

In that era, I'm wondering how differently a soldier would be treated who resigned for reasons of conscience as opposed to someone who avoided service because of cowardice.
ARB

 

[Cavalier]

@A. Roy I believe there are those who might have questioned his true motives. He was after all, a professional soldier and his country was going to war. Just a thought.

John

 

[BarryR]

@A. Roy I believe there are those who might have questioned his true motives. He was after all, a professional soldier and his country was going to war. Just a thought.

John

Finally......

 

[CavRTO]

Finally......

Please correct me if someone's already mentioned it, but there exists a very strong possibility that Grant's drinking may have been the result of PTSD. In view of what he witnessed and his moral dilemma dealing with it during the war with Mexico may very well have been a coping mechanism. There's not much to support his tendency towards alcoholism prior to his commissioning. That he drank while during downtime during the war also lends credence to the symptoms of PTSD.

 

[archieclement]

@A. Roy I believe there are those who might have questioned his true motives. He was after all, a professional soldier and his country was going to war. Just a thought.

John

Yes a war he thought most unjust, in his words. Should ones profession require them to do what they see immoral? If so should they remain in that profession? Those are ethical questions.

 

[Cavalier]

@archieclement He might have remained in the military for fear of being considered a coward by his peers. I may be all wet, and questions of ethics aside, I imagine a man who aspired to be a professional army officer would be very hesitant to allow his reputation to be besmirched by that kind of accusation or even rumor, regardless of his personal opinion on the morality of the war. But it's just a guess, an not a very educated one at that because I'm certainly no expert on U.S.Grant.

John

 

[archieclement]

@archieclement He might have remained in the military for fear of being considered a coward by his peers. I may be all wet, and questions of ethics aside, I imagine a man who aspired to be a professional army officer would be very hesitant to allow his reputation to be besmirched by that kind of accusation or even rumor, regardless of his personal opinion on the morality of the war. But it's just a guess, an not a very educated one at that because I'm certainly no expert on U.S.Grant.

John

Not saying it isnt/wasn't a possible reason. Its hard to get inside someone's head for their thoughts or feelings. We do know how unjust he thought the war was, as he stated so himself. If the Young piece is correct, the reason for staying was lack of moral courage, which may or may not been his exact words. I haven't read Around the World With General Grant to have any personal opinion as to how credible/reliable John Russell Young was.

Perhaps someone who has can relate if they found him credible. It appears to least been someone who actually spent time and interviewed Grant in person.

 

[uaskme]

Wonder if he though a war against the Sioux was Moral? Broke a treaty. Sent Custer to find Gold. In an attempt to start another Gold Rush to save a failing economy and rescue his Presidency. Federal Government against a Indian Tribe. Classic Big Guy Against the Little Guy.

Arguing Grant was Moral is about like arguing a Hooker is a Virgin.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Wonder if he though a war against the Sioux was Moral? Broke a treaty. Sent Custer to find Gold. In an attempt to start another Gold Rush to save a failing economy and rescue his Presidency. Federal Government against a Indian Tribe. Classic Big Guy Against the Little Guy.

Arguing Grant was Moral is about like arguing a Hooker is a Virgin.

Well, he didn't betray his country for slavery, so he's got that going for him.

 

[Cavalier]

@archieclement I also have a issue with getting inside someone else's head. In my opinion that happens a lot among history buffs though. I don't think Grant was a saint by any means, but I don't think he was a villain either, although I'm probably not qualified to have an opinion on that. With some notable exceptions, most of these guys were far more virtuous than I would have been.

John