Grant US Grant ethics?

[archieclement]

@archieclement I also have a issue with getting inside someone else's head. In my opinion that happens a lot among history buffs though. I don't think Grant was a saint by any means, but I don't think he was a villain either, although I'm probably not qualified to have an opinion on that. With some notable exceptions, most of these guys were far more virtuous than I would have been.

John

I'm not suggesting he was either a saint or villain either. He himself seems to have noted the ethical dilemma with his own comments and interviews.

 

[GwilymT]

Please correct me if someone's already mentioned it, but there exists a very strong possibility that Grant's drinking may have been the result of PTSD. In view of what he witnessed and his moral dilemma dealing with it during the war with Mexico may very well have been a coping mechanism. There's not much to support his tendency towards alcoholism prior to his commissioning. That he drank while during downtime during the war also lends credence to the symptoms of PTSD.

There could be something to that and it seems plausible but I think that we get on very thin ice when trying to psychoanalyze historical figures.

I tend to view Grant's drinking as less of an alcoholic driven need (he doesn't seem to have let affect his performance during the war and one of the telltale signs of alcoholism is the inability to control when one drinks and attempting to hide it) but rather that he indulged occasionally when he could but was no good at it. A "light weight" if you would.

 

[AA484]

Historical figure said or did something hypocritical; news at 11

 

[Tennessee Union Gal]

Historical figure said or did something hypocritical; news at 11

I'll venture a guess that everyone, living or dead has said or done something hypocritical at one point or another.

 

[Tennessee Union Gal]

There could be something to that and it seems plausible but I think that we get on very thin ice when trying to psychoanalyze historical figures.

I tend to view Grant's drinking as less of an alcoholic driven need (he doesn't seem to have let affect his performance during the war and one of the telltale signs of alcoholism is the inability to control when one drinks and attempting to hide it) but rather that he indulged occasionally when he could but was no good at it. A "light weight" if you would.

The Chernow biography implies that he had a very low tolerance for alcohol.

 

[CavRTO]

There could be something to that and it seems plausible but I think that we get on very thin ice when trying to psychoanalyze historical figures.

I tend to view Grant's drinking as less of an alcoholic driven need (he doesn't seem to have let affect his performance during the war and one of the telltale signs of alcoholism is the inability to control when one drinks and attempting to hide it) but rather that he indulged occasionally when he could but was no good at it. A "light weight" if you would.

That's very true but Grant's behavior has tell tale signs of PTSD. Alcohol or drugs aren't necessarily part of PTSD. It manifests itself in other ways too. Trust me.

 

[GwilymT]

That's very true but Grant's behavior has tell tale signs of PTSD. Alcohol or drugs aren't necessarily part of PTSD. It manifests itself in other ways too. Trust me.

From my very limited understanding it may be an effort at self medicating.

 

[rbasin]

I've read in a few spots about Grant lying in front of chief justice Chase. Anyone know about what?

 

[Cavalier]

@CavRTO What would be the other signs of PTSD displayed by Grant? He seems to have been pretty stable to me, regardless of my opinions of him as a General.

John

 

[archieclement]

@CavRTO What would be the other signs of PTSD displayed by Grant? He seems to have been pretty stable to me, regardless of my opinions of him as a General.

John

Do you think he was a poor general, or just over-rated?

I think its hard at times to rate some of our leading generals, as they often had manpower/equipment advantages.

 

[Cavalier]

@archieclement I am not all that well read up on him, that's for sure, but from what I have read over the years I think as a general, he's overrated. To his credit though, like Lincoln is supposed to have said of him, he fights.

One thing about him I do strongly believe however, is that his drinking problems have been exaggerated.

John

 

[GwilymT]

I've read in a few spots about Grant lying in front of chief justice Chase. Anyone know about what?

I've never heard that... sounds like an interesting and out of character story.

 

[rbasin]

I've never heard that... sounds like an interesting and out of character story.

I think that it would have been the whiskey ring. I guess Grant boasted of having a photographic memory, but during testimony for Babcock, suddenly couldn't remember. Trying to find the whole story

 

[RobertP]

Do you think he was a poor general, or just over-rated?

I think its hard at times to rate some of our leading generals, as they often had manpower/equipment advantages.

Gen. Schwarzkopf comes to mind.

 

[rbasin]

I've never heard that... sounds like an interesting and out of character story.

Update. It was after chase died. Grant appointed the new chief justice

 

[uaskme]

Well, he didn't betray his country for slavery, so he's got that going for him.

No he didn't. He married a Planters daughter. Farmed his plantation with at least 1 slave he owned and rented/leased others. Had no remorse about Slavery until after it was all over. Kind of like his capitulation about the Mexican War. Of course we should honor his memoirs? His final last stab to clear his name and fill the Family Coffers so Julia wouldn't have to beg for substance like the old days. LOL

Just Folly that everyone who fought during the Civil War did it for or against Slavery. Beyond Silly.

 

[rbasin]

No he didn't. He married a Planters daughter. Farmed his plantation with at least 1 slave he owned and rented/leased others. Had no remorse about Slavery until after it was all over. Kind of like his capitulation about the Mexican War. Of course we should honor his memoirs? His final last stab to clear his name and fill the Family Coffers so Julia wouldn't have to beg for substance like the old days. LOL

Just Folly that everyone who fought during the Civil War did it for or against Slavery. Beyond Silly.

While I have plenty of criticism for both Grant and Sherman, as many here know, my opinion of him is that he was an ok guy during the war. Afterwards, I think his simple mindedness showed through and he allowed friends too much latitude

 

[uaskme]

While I have plenty of criticism for both Grant and Sherman, as many here know, my opinion of him is that he was an ok guy during the war. Afterwards, I think his simple mindedness showed through and he allowed friends too much latitude

I don have any problem with him/them post or during the War.

Just seems to be different standards for people. Most here who praise Grant slam others. Grant had some obvious shortcomings. Deserves credit for everything he did. However some just aren't satisfied with that.

 

[archieclement]

Gen. Schwarzkopf comes to mind.

Indeed in many of wars, our leading figures held most or all of the cards.

 

[Belfoured]

Update. It was after chase died. Grant appointed the new chief justice

When Chase was Chief Justice he and Grant disagreed about whether the 1862 Legal Tender Act could be applied to pre-existing debts. In 1870 Chase wrote the majority opinion in a 5-3 decision in Hepburn v. Griswold that held application to pre-enactment debts violated the 5th Amendment's Due Process Clause. One of the 5-member majority, Grier, retired for health reasons after the Court decided the case but before the opinion was released. On the date of the opinion Grant nominated Bradley and Strong to fill the two vacancies. In the Legal Tender Cases decided in 1871 the Court overruled Hepburn by a 5-4 vote, with Chase now dissenting. The irony is that as Secretary of the Treasury Chase was instrumental in getting the statute enacted.