Discussion Union vs CSA Guerrilla

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leftyhunter

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Hi @19thGeorgia ,
Guerrilla War did indeed have a huge effect on the Civil War.
" Even so, it is clear that throughout the war Unionists succeeded in retaining control of two-thirds to three fourths of East Tennessee's thirty one counties. In April 1862 Kirby Smith admitted that even after increased efforts under his command to arrest Unionist leaders and enforce conscription, Unionists still controlled twenty five counties and kept secessionists there intimidated and subdued. In October 1862 Major General Sam Jones conceded that partisan fighting continued in every part of East Tennessee and admitted that the Confederacy was no closer to controlling the region then it was a year ago.And by 1863 several Confederate officers had concluded that controlling East Tennessee politically was no longer a realistic aim and it would be better to treat the region as enemy territory,exploit its resources as fully as possible , and draft or exile all military age males.
"Guerrillas, Unionists and Violence on the Confederate Home Front" edited by Daniel Sutherland The University of Arkansas press p. 100
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

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Their was Unionist guerrilla activity in Sc an SW Va. Per p.161 "Deserter bands in Greenville,Pickens and Spartansburg counties built fortifications chased of conscript companies, raided supply depots and looted and burned the property of anyone who openly supported the Confederacy". The also had the support of the population. In SW Va"J.E. Joyner noted "Montgomery, Floyd and Giles Counties wher especially infested by armed bands of deserters. "Local Unionists too aroused by Confederate home -guard depredations formed armed militias . "One unit headed by "Captain" Charles Huff regularly backed up local deserters and ambushed home guard patrols. Their was a Unionist double agent Joseph Phares who informed Huff of home guard movements while feeding misinformation to CSA officers.
Leftyhunter
@major bill here is an example of deserters fighting back against the Confederacy.
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leftyhunter

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I am going to have to respectfully disagre with the notion that Unionist guerrilla warfare was all that similar to Scottish clan fighting. It appera to be far better organized on the whole and many of the guerrillas where not related by blood.
From the book "Junius and Alberts adventures in the Confederacya Civil War odyssey by Peter Carlson publicaffairs.com p.170-171
"Deserters now leave the army with arms and ammunition in hand"per a report by george W. Lay a conscription agent in western Nc."Arriving in their selected localities of refuge, they organize in bands variously estimated at from 50 up to hundred at various points.. In Wilkies County they are organized,drilling regularly and entrenched in a camp up to the number of 500". "These men are not only determined to kill in avoiding apprehension)having put to death yet another of our enrolling officers) but their esprit de corpse extends to revenge killing as well." That does not sound like a family dispute more like a group of determined guerrilla fighter.
Leftyhunter
@major bill more evidence of Confederate deserters fighting back.
Leftyhunter
 
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leftyhunter

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@
Lets look at Ms. and Al.
"A Savage Conflict the decisive role of guerrillas in the American Civil War by Professor Sutherland Univ of North Carolina Press p.260 "The Confederates lost their ability to collect taxs hold court and enforce the laws". "Rival sets of guerrillas and an explosion of deserter/outlaw gangs endangered lives and property". "Ms Confederates forgot about the war outside the state".
"BY the summer of 1864, thanks partly to the infiltration of deserter/outlaw bands from Ms and Fl much of Southern Al even without large pockets of Unionists resembled the Northern portion of the state".
Leftyhunter
@major bill more evidence of Confederate deserters fighting back.
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leftyhunter

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Wow it took a little while to find chapter XII. Here's what I got for my fellow posters but by no means did I read the whole link I will try later. In Watttagua County Nc approx 1k men joined the CSA vs 100 the Union which sounds right thats the same ratio has Current comes up with in "Lincolns Loyalists. Numerous deserters from Tn,Va and Ga arrived by the spring of 1864. Gov Vance had to form a Home Guard of all men 18 to 50 which means these same men can't be in the conventional CSA Army so we have to count that as a win for the Unionists. By April 1864 Gen. McEllroy wrote to Gov.Vance " The county has gone up and there was determination on part of the people generally to do no more service in the cause"
Col. Kirk commander of the 3rd Nc Mounted Inf USV monted a raid that had a fair amount of sucess against Camp Vance resulting in the capture of 1,200 arms and gained 40 recruits and 276 prisoners. They where chased back into Union controlled Tn and one drummer was killed and one 17 year old was wounded. Not a bad loss of prisoners considering the circumstances. Did Col.Kirk deliberately shot a boy to death? I say no and where was he supposed to put the prisoners in the front where if they rebel they block his men's retreat or use them in the rear to protect his troops from hostile fire? I would argue Kirk did right by his men. Both Union forces and Confederate forces that may of been unofficial led by a Col.Vaughn where worse then the Union forces. Good info and others are more then welcome to post from this source.
Leftyhunter
@major bill
More evidence of Confederate deserters fighting back.
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leftyhunter

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STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT,
Raleigh, N. C., April 11, 1864.
Hon. J. A. SEDDON,
Secretary of War:
SIR: I beg again to call your earnest attention to the importance of
suspending the execution of the conscript law in the mountain counties
of North Carolina. They are filled with tories and deserters, burning,
robbing, and murdering. They have been robbed and eaten out by
Longstreets command, and have lost their crops by being in the field
nearly all the time trying to drive back the enemy. Now that Long-
streets command is removed, their condition will be altogether
wretched, and hundreds will go to the enemy for protection and bread.
Please consider these conditions and relieve them if possible.
Yours, truly
Z. B. VANCE
Orders. FIRST BRIGADE, NORTH CAROLINA Home GUARDS,
Mars Hill College, Madison County, N. C., April 12, 1864.
Governor Z. B. VANCE:
A dispatch reached me last night that a band of tories, said to be
headed by Montreval Ray, numbering about seventy-five men came
into Burnsville, Yancey County, on Sunday night last, the 10th instant,
surprised the guard, broke open the magazine, and took all the arms
and ammunition; broke open Bradlys store and carried off the con-
tents; attacked Captain Lyons, the local enrolling officer, in his room,
shot him in the arm slightly, but accidentally he made his escape.
They carried off all the guns they could carry; the balance they broke.
They took, I suppose, about 100 State guns. No one else wounded.
They also took off the bacon brought in by my commissary about 500
pounds. On the day before about fifty women assembled together, of
said county, and marched in a body to a store-house near David Prof-
fitts and pressed about sixty bushels of Government wheat and carried
it off. I very much regret the loss of the arms. On Monday previous
to the robbery I wrote to one of the captains in that county and to the
ordnance officer to either remove the guns and ammunition or see that a
sufficient guard was placed there to protect them. It seems that neither
was done. I also urged on the citizens to lay to a helping hand in this
hour of danger, but all done no good. The county is gone up. It has
got to be impossible to get any man out there unless he is dragged out,
with but very few exceptions. There was but a small guard there, and
the citizens all ran on the first approach of the tories. I have 100 men
at this place to guard against Kirk, of Laurel, and cannot reduce the
force, and to call out any more home guards at this time is only certain
destruction to the country eventually.
In fact, it seems to me that
there is a determination of the people in the country generally to do no
more service in the cause.
Swarms of men liable to conscription are gone to the tories or to the
Yankeessome men that you would have no idea of while many
others are fleeing east of the Blue Ridge for refuge. John S. McElroy
and all the cavalry, J. W. Anderson and many others, are gone to Burke
for refuge. This discourages those who are left behind, and on the
back of that conscription [is] now going on, and a very tyrannical course
pursued by the officers charged with the business, and men conscribe

Page 327

Cw& r. LXV.] CORRESPONDENCE, ETC.CONFEDERATE. 327


and cleaned out as raked with a fine-toothed comb, and if any are left
if they are called upon to do a little home-guard service, they at once
apply for a writ of habeas corpus and get off. Some three or four cases
[have] been tried by Judge Read the last two weeks and the men
released. What are we to do? There are no Confederate troops
scarcely in the western district of North Carolina. Longstreet is said
to have reft Tennessee. This emboldens the tories, and they are now
largely recruited by conscript renegades and very soon it is possible our
country may be full of Yankees. Give me your advice and orders. I
have been doing as I thought the best I could under all circumstances.
How far you may consider me culpable for the loss of the Yancey guns,
& c., I cannot say. I am sorry I did not act more promptly in their
removal, but I thought when the citizens were warned of their danger,
as I had warne(l them and told them it was impossible for me to send
them any force, that they would at once rally to their own defense and
use the guns against their foes, but alas, I was sadly mistaken; if I had
not believed that I would have brought the arms and ammunition to
these headquarters. If something is not done immediately for this
country we will all be ruined, for the home guards now will not do to
depend on. I have written you several times on subjects of importance
to me, and received no answer. I know your time is valuable to you
and that you are pressed to death with business, but some instructions
from you would be of great benefit to me and some encouragement to
our citizens. Do let me hear from you at once.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. W. McELROY,
@major bill see the above Confederate ORs which relate to Confederate deserters in Western North Carolina.
Leftyhunter
 
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leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Location
los angeles ca
Per civilwarsaga.com Private Abraham Lincoln served in the 1st Va cavalry CSA until he deserted in 1864. Private Lincoln was a second cousin to the president. Ky had irregulars on both sides so it possible that a few of Lincolns relatives may of fought or led various band of CSA irregulars.
Leftyhunter
@major bill
Even Lincoln's cousin deserted from the Confederacy.
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leftyhunter

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From what I gather much of rural Ga was a huge mess. From p.186 By late 1862 hundreds of CSA deserters where joining Torie bands in Nc and Ga just as they had been doing in Al. Unions guerrilla groups of up to 300 men roamed the Northern Ga hill country. Rounding up deserters often created popular backlash's .
One intresting CSA deserters was John P. Gatewood who deserted froma Tn cavalry regiment Gatewood also known has "the redhaired beast from Georia" led 50 to 100 men who plundered and killed any Unionist they could find. Gov. Jor Brown of Ga had to create a new militia (I assume the author means the Ga State Militia to guard residents from Confederate Partisan Rangers who often stole from the locals.
P.252-256 of the "Savage Conflict" Their was also Unionist guerrilla activity in central and southern Ga one Ga newspaper in Nov 1863 wrote "we are fighting each other harder then we ever fought the enemy". By the end of 1863 their wher up to 1,500 deserters in the Okefenokee Swamp who committed many crimes. When Sherman invaded Ga their where reports of escaped slaves that formed bands of "pilfering and plundering'"
Sherman did encounter CSA guerrillas but by severe retaliation , using a lot of troops to guard his lines and having large reserves of supplies his men got to where they needed to go.
P.254 General and Chief Halleck told Sherman "we have tried the kid glove policy long enough". At the same time Halleck Gen. David Hunter of "uselessly destroying"homes in Va. Unionist scouts often shot captured CSA guerrillas.
It appears that guerrilla war in the CW was messy and quite similar be it in Mo or any Confederate state.
Leftyhunter
@major bill
More evidence of Confederate deserters fighting back.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
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Location
los angeles ca
Hi @19thGeorgia ,
Guerrilla War did indeed have a huge effect on the Civil War.
" Even so, it is clear that throughout the war Unionists succeeded in retaining control of two-thirds to three fourths of East Tennessee's thirty one counties. In April 1862 Kirby Smith admitted that even after increased efforts under his command to arrest Unionist leaders and enforce conscription, Unionists still controlled twenty five counties and kept secessionists there intimidated and subdued. In October 1862 Major General Sam Jones conceded that partisan fighting continued in every part of East Tennessee and admitted that the Confederacy was no closer to controlling the region then it was a year ago.And by 1863 several Confederate officers had concluded that controlling East Tennessee politically was no longer a realistic aim and it would be better to treat the region as enemy territory,exploit its resources as fully as possible , and draft or exile all military age males.
"Guerrillas, Unionists and Violence on the Confederate Home Front" edited by Daniel Sutherland The University of Arkansas press p. 100
Leftyhunter
@archieclement
Here is but one example of the CSA having a major insurgency problem.
Leftyhunter
 
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leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Here you go my CSA Today. Did Unionist guerrillas control territory? Where they at least as serious a threat to the CSA has CSA guerrillas where to the Union? Lets find out.
From the book "War at every door Partisan politics&guerrilla violence in East Tennessee 1860-1869 Noel Fisher Univ of North Carolina Press
P.68 In early 1862 Unionist guerrillas in Scot and Morgan Counties killed a number of secessionists burned Confederate homes took over all county offices and caused secessionists to flee to Kingston, Tn. Gen. Kirby Smith sent one thousand troops to clear out the guerrillas but when they left the guerrillas simply reasserted control(p.69). In April 1862 Gen. Smith reported that organized bands of guerrillas existed in 25 of 32 Tn counties under his control. Unionist guerrillas also attacked CSA soldiers returning to east Tn after their failed invasion of Tn.
P.79 Captain Stringfield CSA provost Martial for Carter County wrote that the people where loyal to the Union and it was dangerous to travel outside the camps. P.71 the presidents of local RR's wrote to President Davis complaining of attacks on their RR's and demanding protection. Does this sound like Unionist guerrillas just held unoccupied ground?
Leftyhunter
@archieclement and @19thGeorgia
More evidence that Unionist guerrillas were a major threat to the Confederacy.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
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Location
los angeles ca
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT,
Raleigh, N. C., April 11, 1864.
Hon. J. A. SEDDON,
Secretary of War:
SIR: I beg again to call your earnest attention to the importance of
suspending the execution of the conscript law in the mountain counties
of North Carolina. They are filled with tories and deserters, burning,
robbing, and murdering. They have been robbed and eaten out by
Longstreets command, and have lost their crops by being in the field
nearly all the time trying to drive back the enemy. Now that Long-
streets command is removed, their condition will be altogether
wretched, and hundreds will go to the enemy for protection and bread.
Please consider these conditions and relieve them if possible.
Yours, truly
Z. B. VANCE
@archieclement and @19thGeorgia
More evidence of the Confederacy not being popular and of serious insurgency from the governor of North Carolina.
Leftyhunter
 
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leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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los angeles ca
Thats your opinion. Obviously Govenor Vancedid not consider Unionist guerrillas to be a minor nuisance. Vance is begging the Confederate Secretary of War not to conscript North Carolians desperately neede by the Confederacy.
Leftyhunter
 

Rebforever

Lt. Colonel
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Thats your opinion. Obviously Govenor Vancedid not consider Unionist guerrillas to be a minor nuisance. Vance is begging the Confederate Secretary of War not to conscript North Carolians desperately neede by the Confederacy.
Leftyhunter
Add them up, then. It is just a few!
 
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leftyhunter

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It was serious to loyal mountain people preyed upon by these unionists thugs but not serious to the extent that it tied any significant number of Confederate troops.
True that some mountain people were pro Confederate but many were not.
Many Southerners as evidenced by their actions considered the Confederate homeguards to be the thugs. By 1864 more and more Southerners as evidenced by their actions were willing to engage in armed resistance to the Confederacy.
Post civil war as per my thread "post Civil War armed Insurgency" the Democratic party paramilitaries waged terrorism on their fellow Southerners. Thus continued off and on until the FBI instituted "CountertellPro " one hundred years later.
Leftyhunter
 
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leftyhunter

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Add them up, then. It is just a few!
If you could show scholarly research that is peer reviewed that gives a reasonable estimate of how many Unionist guerrillas that where that would be great.
Based on what Confederate officals actualy wrote and how many Confederate troops were diverted to Counterinsurgency it is unreasonable to conclude that there were only a few Unionist guerrillas.
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Rebforever

Lt. Colonel
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Just a few is all I can count. Unless you have numbers proving otherwise. With sources, of course.
 
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