Union General Sam Curtis

[Twilcox54]

Other than the battle of Pea Ridge AR,Mar. 1862, does anybody know if Union General Sam Curtis was in any other Civil War Battles?

 

[NedBaldwin]

Other than the battle of Pea Ridge AR,Mar. 1862, does anybody know if Union General Sam Curtis was in any other Civil War Battles?

Westport, Mo., October 23, 1864.

 

[leftyhunter]

Gov. Gamble of Mo hated him b

Other than the battle of Pea Ridge AR,Mar. 1862, does anybody know if Union General Sam Curtis was in any other Civil War Battles?

You got to love old Gen Curtis he unlike McCllean really was outnumbered at Pea Ridge and still 'got her done".
Apparently Gov. Gamble of Mo really detested him more then a little bit. In "The Civil War in Missouri Essays from the Missouri Historical Review 1906-2006 published by The State Historical Society of Missouri Gamble thought that Curtis ( see pages 89 to 91) and his subordinate officers interfered in civilian affairs and was corrupt. When Curtis was to be appointed Military commander of federal troops in Mo Gamble sent a Mr. Henderson to see President Lincoln to remove him. Lincoln did remove Curtis in favor of Gen Schofield but somehow his private letter to Gen. Schofield was made public in which Lincoln said that"perhaps not from choice the head of one faction vs another but i could not remove Gamble so I had to remove Curtis. Gamble was very embarrassed and Lincoln never apologized. Mo politis in the CW was complex.

One can argue that Curtis was the first Union Gen to have his men live off the land when after pea ridge they lived of the land for a month or so while marching through Ark.
Leftyhunter

 

[Georgia Sixth]

One can argue that Curtis was the first Union Gen to have his men live off the land when after pea ridge they lived of the land for a month or so while marching through Ark.
Leftyhunter

How well I know. My grandfather used to tell me stories that were passed down from his grandmother who lived in the path of Curtis' men. I'll leave it to your imagination as to how he referred to the northers.

 

[rbasin]

Apparently, Curtis wrote some remarks that the Gov. thought too abolitionist. When Curtis refused to retrack the remarks, the Governor insisted that Lincoln replace him. Lincoln said something like since he couldn't replace the Governor, he had to replace Curtain. Lincoln made sure that the letter from the Governor to him was leaked.

 

[leftyhunter]

Apparently, Curtis wrote some remarks that the Gov. thought too abolitionist. When Curtis refused to retrack the remarks, the Governor insisted that Lincoln replace him. Lincoln said something like since he couldn't replace the Governor, he had to replace Curtain. Lincoln made sure that the letter from the Governor to him was leaked.

That's interesting my source did not say it was deliberate on Lincoln's part not saying it was not. What source did you use? I know Mo CW politics where hideously complex. There is a quote from Lincoln in which he described five different pro-Union factions in Mo that hated each other. The quote is in "Team of Rivals plus I am sure other books. No doubt Lincoln considered Mo a big headache but Mo was to important to ignore.
Leftyhunter

 

[rbasin]

I'll find it. Saw it a couple of times online. I'll post soon

 

[rbasin]

Here's background. I'll find the others in a minute>


http://www.mrlincolnandfriends.org/inside.asp?pageID=8&subjectID=8

Meade was notoriously prickly, but he wasn't unique. President Lincoln struggled to balance their prickliness with public policy. It wasn't just what generals did on the battlefield that concerned and irritated President Lincoln. What generals did in relation to civilian populations and authorities could be equally vexing. The border situation in Missouri was particularly troublesome - as there was continuing tension between conservatives and radicals and between civilian leaders and military commanders. General Samuel R. Curtis has suppressed the Rev. Samuel S. McPheeters from preaching because the minister's Southern sympathies. Mr. Lincoln rebuked General Curtis, writing in early January 1863: "But I must add that the U.S. government must not, as by this order, undertake to run the churches. When an individual, in a church or out of it, becomes dangerous to the public interest, he must be checked; but let the churches, as such take care of themselves. It will not do for the U.S. to appoint Trustees, Supervisors, or other agencies for the churches."16 But problems continued. Later in January 1863, the President wrote Curtis: I am having a good-deal of trouble with Missouri matters, and I now sit down to write you particularly about it. One class of friends in greater severity, and another in greater leniency, in regard to arrests, banishments, and assessments. As usual in such cases, each questions the other motives. On the one hand it is insisted that Gov. [Hamilton R.] Gamble's Unionism, at most, is not better than a secondary spring of action--that hunkerism, and a wish for political influence, stand before Unionism, with him. On the other hand, it is urged that arrests, banishments, and assessment are made more for private malice, revenge, and pecuniary interest, than for the public good. This morning I was told by a gentleman who, I have no doubt believes what he says, that in one case of assessments for ten thousand dollars, the different persons who paid, compared receipts, and found they had paid thirty thousand dollars. If this be true, the inference is that the collecting agents pocketed the odd twenty thousand. And true or not, in the instance, nothing but the sternest necessity can justify the making and maintaining of a system so liable to such abuses. Doubtless the necessity for the making of the system in Missouri did exist, and whether it continues for the maintenance of it, is now a practical, and very important question. Some days ago Governor Gamble telegraphed me asking that the assessments, outside the St. Louis county, might be suspended, as they already have been within it; and this morning all the members of congress here from Missouri, but one, lay a paper before me asking the same thing. Now, my belief is that Gov. Gamble is an honest and true man, not less so than yourself; that you and he could confer together on this, and other Missouri questions with great advantage to the public; that each knows something which the other does not, and that, acting together, you could about double your stock of pertinent information. May I do not hope you and he will attempt this? I could at once safely do, (or you could safely do without me) whatever you and he agree upon. There is absolutely no reason why you should not agree."17
Civilians were difficult enough to control. Disciplining the military could be equally troublesome. Mr. Lincoln's policy was wherever possible to expand and protect the number of friends of the Union. This meant trying to patch up differences where possible and removing obstacles where necessary. Eventually, Mr. Lincoln decided that the situation in Missouri required a change in command and appointed General John M. Schofield to replace Curtis. He wrote Schofield: Having relieved Gen. Curtis and assigned you to the command of the Department of the Missouri - I think it may be of some advantage for me to state to you why I did it. I did not relieve Gen. Curtis because of any full conviction that he had done wrong by commission or omission. I did it because of a conviction in my mind that the Union men of Missouri, constituting, when united, a vast majority of the whole people, have entered into a pestilent factional quarrel among themselves, Gen. Curtis, perhaps not of choice, being the head of one faction, and Gov. Gamble that of the other. After months of labor to reconcile the difficulty, it seemed to grow worse and worse until I felt it my duty to break it up some how; and as I could not remove Gov. Gamble, I had to remove Gen. Curtis. Now that you are in the position, I wish you to undo nothing merely because Gen. Curtis or Gov. Gamble did it; but to exercise your own judgment, and do right for the public interest. Let your military measures be strong enough to repel the invader and keep the peace, and not so strong as to unnecessarily harrass and persecute the people. It is a difficult role, and so much greater will be the honor if you perform it well. If both factions, or neither, shall abuse you, you will probably be about right. Beware of being assailed by one, and praised by the other.18
Problems in Missouri continued when this letter leaked into the press. Governor Gamble took offense and wrote President Lincoln:

"Your letter to Major General Schofield of the 27th of May was published in the newspapers of this city on the 27th of June last and but for my engagements in the State Convention in aiding in the passage of an ordinance of emancipation, and other pressing official duties I would sooner have attended to that most extraordinary publication.
As a paper written by the President...concerning the Governor of a loyal state is a most remarkable production and its publication is a most wanton and unmerited insult...I have borne in silence the attacks...by newspaper writers, but when the President...in an official communication undertakes to characterise me, the Governor of a loyal state, as the head of a faction in that state, an answer is demanded...
I take leave to say...that the language of your letter...is in my judgment unbecoming your position...But there is your accusation...this further wrong, that the charge is not true...
I have earnestly desired that the military might be restrained from all wanton violence and cruelty...When my views of the policy necessary to the restoration of peace and civil government have been disregarded, I have caused the facts to be made known to you in order that you might apply the remedy...If making to you the proper representation of facts constituted me the head of a faction then I have been such; but if I was performing a simple duty to you, upon whom rests the ultimate responsibility for the government of the military, then my conduct was necessary for the country, and just to you, furnished no ground for your attack upon me...
'Mr. President, I have disapproved of acts of your administration, but I have carefully abstained from denouncing you...and this because there is nothing of a 'faction' spirit in me...
'You can then judge sir how grossly offensive the language your letter is, when you say 'as' (that is, because) 'I could not remove Gov Gamble I had to remove General Curtis' distinctly intimating that you would have removed me if you could..."19
Mr. Lincoln confronted Gamble directly: "My Private Secretary has just brought me a letter saying it is a very 'cross one from you, about mine to Gen. Schofield, recently published in the Democrat. As I am trying to preserve my own temper, by avoiding irritants, so far as practicable, I have declined to read the cross letter. I think fit to say, however, that when I wrote the letter to Gen. Schofield, I was totally unconscious of any malice, or disrespect towards you, or of using any expression which should offend you, if seen by you."20 Keeping friendly relations with generals could not come at the expense of friendly relations with their civilian counterparts. Mr. Lincoln needed friends everywhere and as many as he could get.​

 

[leftyhunter]

Here's background. I'll find the others in a minute>


http://www.mrlincolnandfriends.org/inside.asp?pageID=8&subjectID=8

Meade was notoriously prickly, but he wasn't unique. President Lincoln struggled to balance their prickliness with public policy. It wasn't just what generals did on the battlefield that concerned and irritated President Lincoln. What generals did in relation to civilian populations and authorities could be equally vexing. The border situation in Missouri was particularly troublesome - as there was continuing tension between conservatives and radicals and between civilian leaders and military commanders. General Samuel R. Curtis has suppressed the Rev. Samuel S. McPheeters from preaching because the minister's Southern sympathies. Mr. Lincoln rebuked General Curtis, writing in early January 1863: "But I must add that the U.S. government must not, as by this order, undertake to run the churches. When an individual, in a church or out of it, becomes dangerous to the public interest, he must be checked; but let the churches, as such take care of themselves. It will not do for the U.S. to appoint Trustees, Supervisors, or other agencies for the churches."16 But problems continued. Later in January 1863, the President wrote Curtis: I am having a good-deal of trouble with Missouri matters, and I now sit down to write you particularly about it. One class of friends in greater severity, and another in greater leniency, in regard to arrests, banishments, and assessments. As usual in such cases, each questions the other motives. On the one hand it is insisted that Gov. [Hamilton R.] Gamble's Unionism, at most, is not better than a secondary spring of action--that hunkerism, and a wish for political influence, stand before Unionism, with him. On the other hand, it is urged that arrests, banishments, and assessment are made more for private malice, revenge, and pecuniary interest, than for the public good. This morning I was told by a gentleman who, I have no doubt believes what he says, that in one case of assessments for ten thousand dollars, the different persons who paid, compared receipts, and found they had paid thirty thousand dollars. If this be true, the inference is that the collecting agents pocketed the odd twenty thousand. And true or not, in the instance, nothing but the sternest necessity can justify the making and maintaining of a system so liable to such abuses. Doubtless the necessity for the making of the system in Missouri did exist, and whether it continues for the maintenance of it, is now a practical, and very important question. Some days ago Governor Gamble telegraphed me asking that the assessments, outside the St. Louis county, might be suspended, as they already have been within it; and this morning all the members of congress here from Missouri, but one, lay a paper before me asking the same thing. Now, my belief is that Gov. Gamble is an honest and true man, not less so than yourself; that you and he could confer together on this, and other Missouri questions with great advantage to the public; that each knows something which the other does not, and that, acting together, you could about double your stock of pertinent information. May I do not hope you and he will attempt this? I could at once safely do, (or you could safely do without me) whatever you and he agree upon. There is absolutely no reason why you should not agree."17
Civilians were difficult enough to control. Disciplining the military could be equally troublesome. Mr. Lincoln's policy was wherever possible to expand and protect the number of friends of the Union. This meant trying to patch up differences where possible and removing obstacles where necessary. Eventually, Mr. Lincoln decided that the situation in Missouri required a change in command and appointed General John M. Schofield to replace Curtis. He wrote Schofield: Having relieved Gen. Curtis and assigned you to the command of the Department of the Missouri - I think it may be of some advantage for me to state to you why I did it. I did not relieve Gen. Curtis because of any full conviction that he had done wrong by commission or omission. I did it because of a conviction in my mind that the Union men of Missouri, constituting, when united, a vast majority of the whole people, have entered into a pestilent factional quarrel among themselves, Gen. Curtis, perhaps not of choice, being the head of one faction, and Gov. Gamble that of the other. After months of labor to reconcile the difficulty, it seemed to grow worse and worse until I felt it my duty to break it up some how; and as I could not remove Gov. Gamble, I had to remove Gen. Curtis. Now that you are in the position, I wish you to undo nothing merely because Gen. Curtis or Gov. Gamble did it; but to exercise your own judgment, and do right for the public interest. Let your military measures be strong enough to repel the invader and keep the peace, and not so strong as to unnecessarily harrass and persecute the people. It is a difficult role, and so much greater will be the honor if you perform it well. If both factions, or neither, shall abuse you, you will probably be about right. Beware of being assailed by one, and praised by the other.18
Problems in Missouri continued when this letter leaked into the press. Governor Gamble took offense and wrote President Lincoln:

"Your letter to Major General Schofield of the 27th of May was published in the newspapers of this city on the 27th of June last and but for my engagements in the State Convention in aiding in the passage of an ordinance of emancipation, and other pressing official duties I would sooner have attended to that most extraordinary publication.
As a paper written by the President...concerning the Governor of a loyal state is a most remarkable production and its publication is a most wanton and unmerited insult...I have borne in silence the attacks...by newspaper writers, but when the President...in an official communication undertakes to characterise me, the Governor of a loyal state, as the head of a faction in that state, an answer is demanded...
I take leave to say...that the language of your letter...is in my judgment unbecoming your position...But there is your accusation...this further wrong, that the charge is not true...
I have earnestly desired that the military might be restrained from all wanton violence and cruelty...When my views of the policy necessary to the restoration of peace and civil government have been disregarded, I have caused the facts to be made known to you in order that you might apply the remedy...If making to you the proper representation of facts constituted me the head of a faction then I have been such; but if I was performing a simple duty to you, upon whom rests the ultimate responsibility for the government of the military, then my conduct was necessary for the country, and just to you, furnished no ground for your attack upon me...
'Mr. President, I have disapproved of acts of your administration, but I have carefully abstained from denouncing you...and this because there is nothing of a 'faction' spirit in me...
'You can then judge sir how grossly offensive the language your letter is, when you say 'as' (that is, because) 'I could not remove Gov Gamble I had to remove General Curtis' distinctly intimating that you would have removed me if you could..."19
Mr. Lincoln confronted Gamble directly: "My Private Secretary has just brought me a letter saying it is a very 'cross one from you, about mine to Gen. Schofield, recently published in the Democrat. As I am trying to preserve my own temper, by avoiding irritants, so far as practicable, I have declined to read the cross letter. I think fit to say, however, that when I wrote the letter to Gen. Schofield, I was totally unconscious of any malice, or disrespect towards you, or of using any expression which should offend you, if seen by you."20 Keeping friendly relations with generals could not come at the expense of friendly relations with their civilian counterparts. Mr. Lincoln needed friends everywhere and as many as he could get.​

Outstanding and quick research. IMHO the main problem of Mo was for the first time in the history of the US Army and allied security forces( i.e. the MSM , local militias local law enforcement) they faced a white guerrilla enemy vs the Indians. Fighting Indians was rather simple in crude terms "if its red its its dead or just round up the women and children and any Indian not in a reservation just kill them no legal problems. That may sound simple but based on what i have read about Indian fighting that's just what the US Army did. Fighting white people is more difficult because how do you know if someone is on your side or not and yes all white people look alike? Thus the COIN war in Mo and other states was ugly and messy. I have to have sympathy for bot Gamble and Lincoln since they both had a tough job. I am not sure why Lincoln had sought to embarrass Gamble?
Leftyhunter

 

[rbasin]

apparently, Curtis doubted the loyalty of a priest and Gamble took offense to it. Gamb;e seems to have been a pain in Lincoln butt since 1862. The following helps to begins sorting it out. The part about Schofield is interesting, considering what Lincoln told him in the earlier post

http://thepeoplestribune.com/?p=20224

 

[rbasin]

http://www.abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/Library/newsletter.asp?ID=64&CRLI=109

 

[leftyhunter]

apparently, Curtis doubted the loyalty of a priest and Gamble took offense to it. Gamb;e seems to have been a pain in Lincoln butt since 1862. The following helps to begins sorting it out. The part about Schofield is interesting, considering what Lincoln told him in the earlier post

http://thepeoplestribune.com/?p=20224

I can see the Lincoln's difficulty with Curtis on what to do about hostile religious figures. To paraphrase Lincoln on Congressmen Valdighiam (sp?) who said something to the effect :must I execute a 16 year old boy who falls asleap on guard duty but allow a political figure the right to encourage men to commit treason"? Ok I know those where not Lincolns exact words but they represent the message he wanted to get out over Congressmen V. Does being a the leader of a religious organization give immunity to encourage other men to commit treason and violence against the lawful govt of the land? That's a tough question I am not sure Curtis was wrong based on him being on the scene. I can see Lincoln's concern. There where no easy answers in Mo that is why the COIN war was so messy.
Leftyhunter

 

[rbasin]

I don't really know a lot of the Missouri war. But, it was brutal. +

 

[rbasin]

HEADQUARTERS OF THE ARMY,
Washington, D. C., November 11, 1861.
Major General H. W. HALLECK, U. S. A.,
Commanding Department of Missouri:
GENERAL: In assigning you to the command of the Department of the Missouri, it is probably unnecessary for me to state that I have intrusted to you a duty which requires the utmost tact and decision. You have not merely the ordinary duties of a military commander to perform, but the far more difficult task of reducing chaos to order, of changing probably the majority of the personnel of the staff of the department, and of reducing to a point of economy, consistent with the interests and necessities of the State, a system of reckless expenditure and fraud, perhaps unheard of before in the history of the world.
You will find in your department many general and staff officers holding illegal commissions and appointments not recognized or approved by the President or Secretary of War. You will please at once inform these gentlemen of the nullity of their appointment, and see that no pay or allowances are issued to them until such time as commissions may be authorized by the President or Secretary of War.
If any of them give the slightest trouble you will at once arrest them and send them, under guard, out of the limits of your department, informing them that if they return they will be placed in close confinement. You will please examine into the legality of the organization of the troops serving in the department. When you find any illegal, unusual, or improper organizations you will give to the officers and men an opportunity to enter the legal military establishment under general laws and orders from the War Department, reporting in full to these headquarters any officer or organization that may decline.
You will please cause competent and reliable staff officers to examine all existing contracts immediately, and suspend all payments upon them until you receive the report in each case. Where there is the slightest doubt as to the propriety of the contract, you will be good enough to refer the matter with full explanation to these headquarters, stating in each case what would be a fair compensation for the service or materials rendered under the contract. Discontinue at once the reception of material or services under any doubtful contract. Arrest and bring to prompt trial all officers who have in any way violated their duty to the Government. In regard to the political conduct of affairs, you will please labor to impress upon the inhabitants of Missouri and the adjacent States that we are fighting solely for the integrity of the Union, to uphold the power of our National Government, and to restore to the nation the blessings of peace and good order.
With respect to military operations, it is probable, from the best information in my possession, that the interests of the Government will be best served by fortifying and holding in considerable strength Rolla, Sedalia, and other interior points, keeping strong patrols constantly moving from the terminal stations, and concentrating the mass of the troops on or near the Mississippi, prepared for such ulterior operations as the public interests may demand.
I would be glad to have you make as soon as possible a personal inspection of all the important points in your department, and report the result to me. I cannot too strongly impress upon you the absolute necessity of keeping me constantly advised of the strength, condition, and location of your troops, together with all facts that will enable me to maintain that general direction of the armies of the United States which it is my purpose to exercise. I trust to you maintain thorough organization, discipline, and economy throughout your department. Please inform me as soon as possible of everything relating to the gunboats now in process of construction, as well as those completed.
The militia force authorized to be raised by the State of Missouri for its defense will be under your orders.
I am, general, &c.,
GEO. B. McCLELLAN,
Major-General, Commanding U. S. Army

 

[leftyhunter]

I don't really know a lot of the Missouri war. But, it was brutal. +

It was not a sunny day at the beach . The US Army in recent years has studied it has a guide for COIN war. Is the war in Mo similar to other COIN wars? Yes and no but that's modern or semi-modern politics.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

HEADQUARTERS OF THE ARMY,
Washington, D. C., November 11, 1861.
Major General H. W. HALLECK, U. S. A.,
Commanding Department of Missouri:
GENERAL: In assigning you to the command of the Department of the Missouri, it is probably unnecessary for me to state that I have intrusted to you a duty which requires the utmost tact and decision. You have not merely the ordinary duties of a military commander to perform, but the far more difficult task of reducing chaos to order, of changing probably the majority of the personnel of the staff of the department, and of reducing to a point of economy, consistent with the interests and necessities of the State, a system of reckless expenditure and fraud, perhaps unheard of before in the history of the world.
You will find in your department many general and staff officers holding illegal commissions and appointments not recognized or approved by the President or Secretary of War. You will please at once inform these gentlemen of the nullity of their appointment, and see that no pay or allowances are issued to them until such time as commissions may be authorized by the President or Secretary of War.
If any of them give the slightest trouble you will at once arrest them and send them, under guard, out of the limits of your department, informing them that if they return they will be placed in close confinement. You will please examine into the legality of the organization of the troops serving in the department. When you find any illegal, unusual, or improper organizations you will give to the officers and men an opportunity to enter the legal military establishment under general laws and orders from the War Department, reporting in full to these headquarters any officer or organization that may decline.
You will please cause competent and reliable staff officers to examine all existing contracts immediately, and suspend all payments upon them until you receive the report in each case. Where there is the slightest doubt as to the propriety of the contract, you will be good enough to refer the matter with full explanation to these headquarters, stating in each case what would be a fair compensation for the service or materials rendered under the contract. Discontinue at once the reception of material or services under any doubtful contract. Arrest and bring to prompt trial all officers who have in any way violated their duty to the Government. In regard to the political conduct of affairs, you will please labor to impress upon the inhabitants of Missouri and the adjacent States that we are fighting solely for the integrity of the Union, to uphold the power of our National Government, and to restore to the nation the blessings of peace and good order.
With respect to military operations, it is probable, from the best information in my possession, that the interests of the Government will be best served by fortifying and holding in considerable strength Rolla, Sedalia, and other interior points, keeping strong patrols constantly moving from the terminal stations, and concentrating the mass of the troops on or near the Mississippi, prepared for such ulterior operations as the public interests may demand.
I would be glad to have you make as soon as possible a personal inspection of all the important points in your department, and report the result to me. I cannot too strongly impress upon you the absolute necessity of keeping me constantly advised of the strength, condition, and location of your troops, together with all facts that will enable me to maintain that general direction of the armies of the United States which it is my purpose to exercise. I trust to you maintain thorough organization, discipline, and economy throughout your department. Please inform me as soon as possible of everything relating to the gunboats now in process of construction, as well as those completed.
The militia force authorized to be raised by the State of Missouri for its defense will be under your orders.
I am, general, &c.,
GEO. B. McCLELLAN,
Major-General, Commanding U. S. Army

For once I will have to give little Mac some credit . His assessment of Mo in 1862 is not altogether wrong.
Leftyhunter

 

[rbasin]

For once I will have to give little Mac some credit . His assessment of Mo in 1862 is not altogether wrong.
Leftyhunter

Yeah. He did seem to understand the political and military issues. Just didn't know how to put it into action.